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| Poll: Can you live without a party in Redemption? |
| Yes, because I think the game will be great even without a party |
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42 |
89.36% |
| No, a party is essential and I cannot imagine Redemption being any good without it |
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5 |
10.64% |
| Total: |
47 Votes |
100% |
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Message:
 | composed: 12-04-2022 16:44 |
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robbo007 
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| Location: Valencia, Spain |
| | Favourite Ultima: Ultima 7 Black Gate |
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No party no problems. I prefer a finished game.
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| Message:
| composed: 12-04-2022 18:01 |
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Having a party system is nice but in the end content is king. A well developed story is more important then traveling with a party.
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| composed: 12-04-2022 19:17 |
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Avatar: The task ahead is exceptionally difficult.
Shamino: Iolo's gotten himself poisoned again!
Avatar: Success will require focus and perseverance.
Dupre: I'm hungry!
Avatar: After it is finished, several important side-quests must also be addressed.
Shamino: And... there he goes! Iolo's dead.
Avatar: What I'm trying to say is...
Dupre: I have to pee!
Avatar: if I'm going to get any of that done, I'm going to have to ask you all to leave.
I believe having party members is wildly unnecessary and probably counterproductive. When I played Ultimas 6, 7.1, and 7.2 party members were often more of a liability than an asset and I was glad to be rid of them in 8 - and 9 even though it was non-canonical. Of course, Redemption might do a better job, but at what cost? In general, there are three principal reasons you would want to have companions with you: battle strength, skill variety, and inventory management. My analysis of each follows.
Battle strength:
In a game like Dragon Age - Origins, having a party is essential. Pitched battles are a recurring theme of game-play and additional party members allow the player to take-on more opponents and stronger opponents. In that kind of game, you simply can't win without a well-balanced team. If Redemption were to be such a game, there would be no question. I personally loved Dragon Age, but the problem is Ultima hasn't been that kind of game in the past. I suppose there might have been one or two important battles in Black Gate or Serpent Isle that were easier with party members, but no one can claim that those rare moments defined those games.
Skill variety:
Again, in a game like Dragon Age this is important. Since the game limited skill accumulation it was quite useful to spread things around. You needed someone with stealth who could also pick locks. You needed a healer. You needed a detector. Again, that hasn't been Ultima's dynamic. Nothing prevented the avatar from hoarding skills and attributes.
Inventory management:
This is probably Ultima's strongest argument for parties. Having additional party members allowed you to take more stuff. Unfortunately, it came at the cost of needing all that extra crap to take care of your idiotic companions. Make sure you have 8 pairs of swamp boots! Oh, and you'll need 350 heal potions as well as every bit of food you ever come across. Cumbersome. Just give me a large enough inventory to efficiently support plot movement. Personally, I don't think it's fun to spend hours sorting, stowing, and remembering who has the God-damned swamp boots.
The bottom line is if you intend to make Redemption in the style of Dragon Age then I say knock your socks off with party members. I'd love it. However, if you are trying to make an Ultima then you might come to the same conclusion Richard Garriott came to by the time he made Pagan.
This post has been edited 1 time(s), it was last edited by rich586: 12-04-2022 19:21.
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| Message:
| composed: 12-04-2022 20:14 |
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Jaesun
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| Favourite Ultima: Ultima 8 Pagan |
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I can live without a party as well. Not having a party (to me) makes it more a personal journey.
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| Message:
| composed: 12-04-2022 23:18 |
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While I'm sure most can "live" without the old party, and would still play and enjoy the game on whatever merits it has, most people would - I think - choose a third option if was there: The game may well be good, or even great, without them, but It'll have a lot to make up for."
So I feel compelled to vote no just to represent them a bit more, neither option being strictly true.
Personally, this aspect is a lot of what makes Ultima feel like Ultima. That you have a group of friends who share most of your trials and tribulations, who want to achieve the same end. Having each of them represent a different virtue teaches the Avatar how to be all eight and become Avatar is pretty core to the series. Even on Eodon, he found incarnations of his main friends to go with him.
And having them spontaneously talk to you about new situations was really cool.
Sure, the president has already been set in other games, though I'd argue the series was a different beast in the days of 1 & 2, and as for 8, it fits into the idea of being exiled to another world; friendless. You probably would never even be able to summon demonic titans if Shamino was at your side saying "Must we do this!?".
All that said, these games do need to evolve, so it largely depends on the story you want to tell. If the story wants the Avatar/player to still feel like a lone wolf, maybe because he's now at odds with some of the old gang due to compromising his/her virtue, then tell that. As it seems like you have long planned to have up to 3 companions share this adventure, I imaging I would keep trying to try every avenue for a solution, despite how much more delayed the game got (I believe your fans are patient). If it really just won't work, then that's another mater, you should still finish the game, but I don't mind a bit of an eccentric AI - U7 doesn't bother me.
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| Message:
| composed: 13-04-2022 13:33 |
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Nickeliii
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| Favourite Ultima: Ultima 7 Black Gate |
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I am of the mind that Redemption would not feel like a truly Ultima experience in my mind minus Shamino, Dupre, Iolo, Sentry, Katrina, Seggallion, Gorn, Spark, Leodon and Julia. I would play the game without them and no doubt enjoy it but a painful chunk of the magic would be absent.
I could live without a party, primarily because I'm aware (at least in practice) that 'Bethesda' and 'Companions' don't get along very well and are thus understanding of the challenges involved. My experiences with Fallout and Elder Scrolls in relation to companions are of the love/hate variety. Take Fallout... befriending a mostly uncontrollable Super Mutant armed with a rocket launcher and a penchant for running headlong into battles already happening 500ft ahead of me was exciting and spontaneous and made for some of the greatest unscripted gameplay ever committed to memory... but Fallout could pull it off because it thrived on exploration and the concept of an open world. Ultimately it detracted from the experience by shattering the illusion that you are the leader and they the follower.
But, Ultima? Story-driven, dialogue-rich gameplay dependent on characters we've grown to know and love Ultima? Not so. If I saw Shamino and Dupre bolt out of sight in different directions, swords drawn, only to turn and see Iolo far in the distance because the rock I leapt over 5 minutes ago was just too much for his ancient bones (AI metaphor) so he was forced to circumnavigate the entire mountain range to keep up... I would laugh unnaturally and then quit.
I know nothing of creating a game, and hence can offer no substantial advice but... Is there no way of incorporating a squad-command control system like Ghost Recon? Or an isometric battle-specific view that allows for a pause-and-plan approach ala Baldurs Gate?
I vote party. Not necessary, just sorely missed. In any case, I'll play your game. And I'll thank you for it.
Magic is impressive, but now Minsc leads! Swords for everyone!
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| Message:
| composed: 13-04-2022 15:21 |
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Vaktorian
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| | Favourite Ultima: Ultima 7 Black Gate |
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Whilst having an advanced party system would be great - the game itself is more important and I'll certainly be playing it regardless.
I think you can still do some interesting things with your companion NPCs - it would be good to see some scripted events where you are fighting alongside some or all of them without them being directly under your control.
Perhaps they could show up occasionally unannounced and aid you in your random encounters as well. Hopefully they could be active in the world without your direct involvement and you might hear now and then from contacts you meet that your companions have achieved certain missions [maybe you can suggest these to them either from a central base where you can regularly find and converse with your companions or as you encounter them in the game world?] or even failed them - leading to impromptu rescue missions/side quests.
Looking forward to playing the finished article.
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| composed: 13-04-2022 17:34 |
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FXguy
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| | Favourite Ultima: Ultima 5 Warriors of Destiny |
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Having a party is not a game breaker for me, and to tell the truth, sometimes they can be more of a hindrance, getting in the way, not doing what you want them to do, etc. How many times did Spark run off through the poison swamps of Paws to attack a wolf?
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| Message:
| composed: 13-04-2022 17:54 |
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Ivo
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| Location: United States Of America |
| | Favourite Ultima: Ultima 3 Exodus |
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Technically speaking, you could still have a party system without actually having the system setup. This is seen in everyday society where a group of people might work as a team to get something finished.
The only problem would be is how to keep the group together if, for instance, the party was to split up. If there was possibly a system to track the group members, like a mini map that color coded guild members (If there is going to be guilds) green, but then you would still have the issue of keeping track of members not in the guild.
There is really no true solution to keeping track of other members unless there is a grouping system/color coding system. Unless the group members stick together like glue.
It isn't a game breaker for me, personally, because I like playing solo anyways, but a party system is nice when doing a dungeon similar to Doom in the Age of Shadows expansion.
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| Message:
| composed: 13-04-2022 18:16 |
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In terms of non-combat pathing problems, one potential solution might be to borrow the system used by the recent Sherlock Holmes games: when a companion is left too far behind and are outside of the player's view, simply teleport them to a point a short distance behind the player (preferably somewhere safe for them to stand 
). It's not ideal, but it circumvents the difficulty of having them find their way around the world.
(If you have more than one or two characters, however, I do strongly recommend giving the AI at least some path-finding: having six characters constantly appearing behind you wherever you turn might be a little off-putting for some, and a little Lovecraftian for an Ultima game... ;P)
| quote: |
| I can't really go into too much detail, but we are considering a number of approaches to handle the party system in light of our current issues. |
I'll confess that you've gained my curiosity -- if you don't mind my asking, why is this being kept secret? It doesn't seem likely to be story-related (I would imagine that you'd make any story-related changes once a decision has been made on the party system, and any story-related constraints could simply be referred to as such (for example: "we don't want to have the Avatar runningaround alone for story reasons"). Implementation seems as though it should be pretty safe, unless you're dealing with some technology that's under a non-disclosure agreement of some sort...
In addition, it may be that some of us have game development experience -- I have, I believe, but will admit that pathing isn't something that I've dealt with overmuch -- and thus may be in a good position to give suggestions.
Forgive me if I pry too much -- I'm just mystified, and thus curious, over the desire for secrecy on such a matter as this. ^^;;;
MWAHAHAHAHA!!!
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| Message:
| composed: 13-04-2022 19:28 |
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Corv
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| Location: Tirol / Austria |
| | Favourite Ultima: Ultima 7 Black Gate |
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Thread Starter 
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Don't put too much into that, Jacar likes to be ominous and post like 5 minutes after I asked everyone not to post so we can get our followers opinions without any additional influence from us 
Some more clarification on the whole party issue:
We do have a system that I think is more complex than anything that has been done by other MW mods so far.
BUT moving NPCs between "cells" (the MW world is split up in many cells) doesn't work how it should. This is the major problem. Within a cell it works fine.
Other than that I think that the party in a first person game like this feels clunky. 1 or 2 is fine but more ... it just doesn't "feel" right. It's a whole different story in an isometric-view gameworld.
Like I said, not having the party doesn't mean that the companions don't play a major role in the game or that they will follow you occasionally!
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| Message:
| composed: 13-04-2022 19:42 |
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Jacar
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| | Favourite Ultima: Ultima Underworld 2 |
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| quote: |
Originally posted by Thaumaturge
Forgive me if I pry too much -- I'm just mystified, and thus curious, over the desire for secrecy on such a matter as this. ^^;;; |
Hi There! No secrecy/ominousness was meant by the post; like Corv said, we really just want your opinions without giving our own.
| quote: |
Originally posted by Corv
Don't put too much into that, Jacar likes to be ominous and post like 5 minutes after I asked everyone not to post so we can get our followers opinions without any additional influence from us
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Uh oh. Looks like I've been grounded fellas 
. See ya!
Enjoy the great taste of wassail, in cans!
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| Message:
| composed: 13-04-2022 19:50 |
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Corv
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| Location: Tirol / Austria |
| | Favourite Ultima: Ultima 7 Black Gate |
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Thread Starter
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Damn now I really want a whip icon here
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| Message:
| composed: 13-04-2022 22:16 |
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| quote: |
| Hi There! No secrecy/ominousness was meant by the post; like Corv said, we really just want your opinions without giving our own. |
| quote: |
| Don't put too much into that, Jacar likes to be ominous and post like 5 minutes after I asked everyone not to post so we can get our followers opinions without any additional influence from us |
Ah, fair enough -- that makes a lot of sense, I do think! ^_^
As to the cell issue, that does sound troublesome indeed. Without better knowledge of how Morrowind handles such things I'm not sure of what to suggest. :/
As to the first-person issue, that is a good point, I think. Now that you mention it, it does seem potentially awkward to have so large a group to manage with so limited a view, especially if any degree of party-control or order-giving is intended. Additonally, any AI issues such as others have mentioned -- such as party members running off on their own -- would likely be made only worse as a result of it being far easier to miss their occurrence.
It's tempting to suggest that you look for a way to implement a third-person combat camera, but that sounds far too difficult just for the sake of shoehorning a party into the game.
I think that as long as the companions are present and have a part in affairs I'll likely be happy. ^_^
MWAHAHAHAHA!!!
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| composed: 13-04-2022 22:23 |
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Fred-A.
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| Location: The real Brittania |
| | Favourite Ultima: Ultima 2 Revenge of the Enchantress |
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With all the tasters that we have had over the years containing the spectacular scenery, 3d buildings and a most involved plot, I can't wait to start playing the whole thing. The fact that the companions will be aiding us as we wander through Britannia just adds to the whole thing.
Please press on with it Corv: we've been patiently waiting for a long time now.
Fred
Try XYZZY - it might work!
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| Message:
| composed: 14-04-2022 02:00 |
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neosapian
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| | Favourite Ultima: Ultima 7 Serpent Isle |
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| quote: |
Originally posted by Lucas
Personally, my favourite Ultima was Ultima Ultima Underworld 2: among other things, what made it great was the immersion factor, but also the fact that, inside Castle British, you met a lot of "old faces" with interesting traits, sub-plots and dialogues in general.
So, as long as the companions (old and new) have those characteristics, interesting scripted actions (well, at least they could accompany you here and there, maybe only in towns?) and suchlike, I wouldn't mind being a "lone wolf" at all. |
sounds like a plan to me...
"A coward dies a thousand deaths, a hero only one, either way YOU LOOSE!"
Minax, R.E 1982 AD
Time of Legends ????
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| composed: 14-04-2022 03:36 |
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Conker
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| | Favourite Ultima: Ultima 7 Serpent Isle |
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As much as I like the idea of having party members, in a game like Morrowind they only served as massive irritations. If they're not perfect they would break the game experience so I vote not to have them. However If possible it would be good to create a dynamic story line where characters aren't always standing in the same shop, drinking in the same pub or hanging around the same town even.
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| Message:
| composed: 14-04-2022 04:46 |
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My favorite Ultima is Underworld 2 too!
That was the first Ultima I played, then it's Pagan, followed by Ascension. So I've never been properly introduced to the 8 virtues until Ascension. And never played an Ultima that has a party system...
I think skyrim's implementation is good.Companions come and go, if they are important, just make them invincible.
I guess it's pretty clear I don't mind having an Ultima that doesn't have a party system...
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| Message:
| composed: 14-04-2022 13:43 |
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Corv
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| Location: Tirol / Austria |
| | Favourite Ultima: Ultima 7 Black Gate |
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Thread Starter
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THANK YOU all for your replies! You helped us more with this decision than you might think!
We had a 2 hour team meeting yesterday (not only about the party issue) and decided to go on without a party.
Here some thoughts about it:
TECHNICAL:
The technical issue is more complicated than you might think. Without wanting to sound arrogant or anything I am quite sure that we gathered a lot of knowledge about the workings of the Morrowind engine over the last few years, all parts of it, and I don't think anyone can help us there technically (thanks though for the offer ThePal). It's about the origin cell of the NPC(party member) which has to be activated before the new cell he is in in order to prevent crashes and so on... Zini could write up a detailed technical analysis, but that's not what this thread is about anyway. Just trust us, that it is not possible to implement fully working party without breaking the game.
This issue WOULD be gone with openMW, but having a party or not is such an essential design decision (many questlines are affected) that it comes down to if we have to wait for openMW to be done before we continue with implementing the actual storyline or not.
BUT this is not the only and as of yesterday not even the most important part of the decision:
GAMEPLAY:
A party is great on paper, a party is great in our memories AND a party is GREAT in an iso view game with (and this is more important) TACTICAL combat, no doubt.
But is a party great in the MW engine? Even if it works perfectly, we do not have iso view and we do not have tactical combat (see eg. Ultima 5,6, Icewind Dale...).
Try to imagine a first person game where you have 5 people CONSTANTLY running behind you. In combat they ll hack away at the enemy like a swarm of goblins,bees, whatever...
The party is more in the way than it is a good addition!
The only benefit a party brings in an environment like this is the potential for interesting dialogues and I get that this is something that could be a great addition to the overall feel of the game no doubt.
But: We can have a lot of this by letting single old friends follow you from time to time, communicate with you in other ways and being an integral part of the story in other ways. Imagine Shamino not going with you because his leadership is needed in Spiritwood (and beyond). He still can help you with quests in Spiritwood. You still will meet him often in the game, he just won't follow you like a love sick dog.
Would this be an isometric game with tactical combat my decision would be different but given the circumstances I am convinced that this is the right design decision I thank you all again for your help!
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| Message:
| composed: 14-04-2022 21:35 |
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OK, you've convinced me Corv. The facts that you can occasionally get together with them to do stuff (say as long as you're in a certain border), but that they can help advance the plot by doing more things on their own, is attractive. I admit, in some ways they can became mere tag along guys, loosing some of their personality after exhausting the dialogue options.
Maybe the Avatar finds Kilrathi communicators to dole out between friends so that they can talk about new developments.
And perhaps, for the endgame, the whole crew can reunite one last time to fight...whatever the last fight is all about.
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