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Poll: Can you live without a party in Redemption?
Yes, because I think the game will be great even without a party 42 89.36%
No, a party is essential and I cannot imagine Redemption being any good without it 5 10.64%
Total: 47 Votes 100%
 
Go to the bottom of this page Finally! Redemption news! 5 Votes - Average Rating: 10.005 Votes - Average Rating: 10.005 Votes - Average Rating: 10.005 Votes - Average Rating: 10.005 Votes - Average Rating: 10.00 « Previous Thread | Next Thread »

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Message: | composed: 11-04-2022 23:17 Go to the top of this page Zum Ende der Seite springen
Corv

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Ok guys and gals!

Here's some insight to what is going on at the moment:

1.) NO we did NOT abandon this project, don't listen to false rumors Wink

2.) Yes we are having some issues to solve.

So we hit a wall with some limitations of the MW engine. Nothing that makes this game impossible, so calm down and keep reading.

We had a looong internal discussion. Actually it's still going on. One thing we definitely do not want to do is wait till openMW is done. That much is decided.

The only real problem we have is making a party system work in a way we are really happy with. Yes we can have the party run with us, there are things you can do with them, but we are not happy with how it works, there are too many issues.

Ultima 9 also had no party, but it wasn't the biggest problem of that game or was it for you?

So we want to test the waters and want to ask YOU, would Redemption without a party kill your excitement for the project? Is it a deal breaker for you? Vote! Everyone loves polls right?

More other thoughts and infos coming up over the next few weeks. You will be able to help us shape the game and that without this being a Kickstarter project, cool right? Wink

Love,

Corv
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Message: | composed: 12-04-2022 02:07 Go to the top of this page Zum Ende der Seite springen
Thaumaturge Thaumaturge is a male

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Ah, well, this at least answers my question in the otherrecent news thread -- thank you very much for posting this! ^_^

Thank you too for asking for community input on this. ^_^

As to the question itself, it seems to me to be a pity, but I think that I'd rather have Redemption without a party than no Redemption at all. While arguably not perfect, Ultima 8 was not made less by the lack of a party, I feel.

Indeed, I think that I'd much rather have a good, highly interactive party -- think of such games as Baldur's Gate or Dragon Age: Origins -- than an unresponsive party that fights poorly and gets in the player's way.

If you don't mind my asking, what are the problems that you're having with implementing the party?

On another topic, you say that you're not waiting for OpenMW -- are you then returning to implementation in pure Morrowind?


MWAHAHAHAHA!!!
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Message: | composed: 12-04-2022 02:35 Go to the top of this page Zum Ende der Seite springen
Lostintime

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I am really divided on this one. I have not voted.

Some of my favorite mods for Morrowind are companion mods, specifically Julan and Constance both on Emma's Elder Scrolls site. Sure the dialogue is largely tongue and cheek, but they do manage to make the player feel like there is a separate personality following along on their adventures, which really adds to the experience, especially after so many replays.

The problem is I would be lying if I said these mods where balanced. There really is not much "strategy" to a companion mod, scripting overtime has become more advanced to insure that a companion no longer burdens the player, but this has the opposite effect of making the game significantly easier with companions.

For the sake of a more complete and polished product, Redemption may be better party-less. Companion characters represent yet another layer of complexity, one which may not mesh well with immersion and game play flow.

I will completely understand if this feature is not included.
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Message: | composed: 12-04-2022 02:50 Go to the top of this page Zum Ende der Seite springen
Jacar Jacar is a male

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We appreciate the well thought out answers so far, keep em coming!

I can't really go into too much detail, but we are considering a number of approaches to handle the party system in light of our current issues. The thoughts of both seasoned Ultima veterans and newcomers are equally important, and even if you don't have a straight up yes or no answer we would love to hear your thoughts. We're making this for you after all!

quote:

...but this has the opposite effect of making the game significantly easier with companions...

Companion characters represent yet another layer of complexity, one which may not mesh well with immersion and game play flow.

However we choose to resolve it, rest assured that a well balanced experience is one of our priorities. We would only want your companions to add to the experience and add immersion, never to detract from the challenge of the game.

quote:
On another topic, you say that you're not waiting for OpenMW -- are you then returning to implementation in pure Morrowind?

Let's just say we're getting back to work in any case Wink .


Enjoy the great taste of wassail, in cans!
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Message: | composed: 12-04-2022 04:12 Go to the top of this page Zum Ende der Seite springen
neosapian neosapian is a male

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I would -like- to have a party, but I am neither yes or no in absolutes. I don't think it would "kill" my enjoyment to go lone wolf, that's what I do in Ultima 1 and 2 anyway. Pleased And I played Ultima 9 three times. Smile ) I would -prefer- a party, yes but I think this game will be fun without it. Big Grin


"A coward dies a thousand deaths, a hero only one, either way YOU LOOSE!"
Minax, R.E 1982 AD
Time of Legends ????
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Message: | composed: 12-04-2022 04:15 Go to the top of this page Zum Ende der Seite springen
neosapian neosapian is a male

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quote:
Originally posted by neosapian
I would -like- to have a party, but I am neither yes or no in absolutes. I don't think it would "kill" my enjoyment to go lone wolf, that's what I do in Ultima 1 and 2 anyway. Pleased And I played Ultima 9 three times. Smile ) I would -prefer- a party, yes but I think this game will be fun without it. Big Grin


therefore, the logical vote for me is YES! I could live w/o a bunch of guys following me around everywhere. Wink


"A coward dies a thousand deaths, a hero only one, either way YOU LOOSE!"
Minax, R.E 1982 AD
Time of Legends ????
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Message: | composed: 12-04-2022 05:47 Go to the top of this page Zum Ende der Seite springen
Thepal Thepal is a male

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I'd vote for having a party.

Do you want to drop me a PM letting me know what issues you are having with the companions? I've probably lost all of my Morrowind stuff in the Great Hard-Drive Crash of 2012, but I might be able to help you out with any issues (or suggest some alternatives)


-==Thepal==-

"We have nothing to do with the mass of men, we two. We walk across the many worlds; by our actions, entire nations crash down or are saved from death." - Mors Gotha
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Message: | composed: 12-04-2022 05:49 Go to the top of this page Zum Ende der Seite springen
Kindbud

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I voted 'yes -- I don't need a party."

The problem I have with the Bethesda format and associated companion mods when it comes to companions is the inability to control them except through limited scripted commands and even those weren't foolproof. Often I would have companions running off killing enemies far from my character's LoS which would make travelling kind of boring.

Combat in and of itself was not very enjoybale with companions in that format as well because the Bethesda format really didn't have much of a pause-command-play such as a game like Dragon Age: Origins had which allows for at least assessing the health of companions and swithching points of view if I remember correctly. Sure, the Bethesda way has its merits in that you wind up with unpredictable outcomes, but it is usually sloppy and very fast paced. I do remember, however, a Fallout 3 mod that had more controllable ways for the PC to place companions. I haven't tried it but here's a link.
[/url]
[url=http://fallout3.nexusmods.com/mods/15979/?tab=3&navtag=%2Fajax%2Fmodim
ages%2F%3Fuser%3D0%26id%3D15979]The other issue I see is perhaps the inability to have those 'down time' moments where you can get to know your companions and really communicate with them like in DA: Origins. I know I keep using that game as an example (even if I wasn't crazy about that game), but the camp scenes plus the random banter between companions added depth to companions more than any Bethesda game could.
[/url]
[url=http://fallout3.nexusmods.com/mods/15979/?tab=3&navtag=%2Fajax%2Fmodim
ages%2F%3Fuser%3D0%26id%3D15979]If, however, it was possible to have party members that could satisfy the above issues (controllable in and out of combat, had more depth) then I would probably want a small party (1-4 companions) to follow me around, but it's not a dealbreaker if I am lone wolfing it.
[url=http://fallout3.nexusmods.com/mods/15979/?tab=3&navtag=%2Fajax%2Fmodim
ages%2F%3Fuser%3D0%26id%3D15979][/url]
Edit: Jeez, I dunno what happened to the insert link display deal, but yeah, should take you to the Nexus site.

This post has been edited 1 time(s), it was last edited by Kindbud: 12-04-2022 05:50.

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Message: | composed: 12-04-2022 06:02 Go to the top of this page Zum Ende der Seite springen
thespud

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Well, I don't think it will feel like a true ultima experience if there's no party. That was one of the major problems I had with Ultima 8 and 9. But if the party system is not much good and you are unhappy with it you should leave it out. It won't destroy the game (at least not for me). It's bit of a let down, but that's ok. I think you guys have done a fantastic job and I'm sure there's plenty of other components which will make it feel ultimaish.
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Message: | composed: 12-04-2022 10:02 Go to the top of this page Zum Ende der Seite springen
3D Master 3D Master is a male

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I don't think I need a party, it would have been nice, but... realistically speaking, what good will a few humans really do the Titan of Ether, god of magic?


"I've got something to say; it's better to burn out, than to fade away."

"Gimme some sugar, baby."

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Message: | composed: 12-04-2022 10:03 Go to the top of this page Zum Ende der Seite springen
Xodus Xodus is a male

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Party would be nice, but I think with the restrictions that the morrowind engines presents, it might not work as well. Nice to see work is still being done though Smile
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Message: | composed: 12-04-2022 10:25 Go to the top of this page Zum Ende der Seite springen
Lucas Lucas is a male

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Personally, my favourite Ultima was Ultima Ultima Underworld 2: among other things, what made it great was the immersion factor, but also the fact that, inside Castle British, you met a lot of "old faces" with interesting traits, sub-plots and dialogues in general.

So, as long as the companions (old and new) have those characteristics, interesting scripted actions (well, at least they could accompany you here and there, maybe only in towns?) and suchlike, I wouldn't mind being a "lone wolf" at all.
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Message: | composed: 12-04-2022 10:51 Go to the top of this page Zum Ende der Seite springen
daveanti

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Thinking back to the Ultimas that had a party of companions, they served two roles:

Outside combat they tagged along under their own steam and occasionally interjected with useful (or humorous) information in conversations with NPCs (and also offered local regional knowledge as you travelled around in some games). This was/is great! And I'd love Redemption to have this too (I'm sure the team have some great conversation scripts involving the player, NPCs and companions).

Within combat they offered the chance for strategic combat, either by direct control over each companion (this was the case in the earlier Ultimas with strictly turn based combat) or ordering each to act in the desired manner (essentially controlling the combat strategy of each companion - this was the case in the later Ultimas with more or less real time combat).

In modern 3D RPG games where real time combat is almost universally used (I can't think of a single counter example) I've not yet played a game where party combat has been done well.
I typically either split my time between keeping my companions alive and trying to kill the opponents (and the split is typically 80% keep your companions alive, 20% kill your opponents :-( ), or I dump my companions beyond range of the fight, and go it alone and then go collect them again when the fight is done (and hope they haven't wandered off!).

The ideal for me would be the ability to select per companion combat strategies (imagine adding over this selection of party combat strategies). But, you'd need a way to change strategies mid-fight without sitting down for a cup of tea to chat with your companion(s) (at which point you'd usually get killed).

Come to think of it, the ability for controlling companion behaviour could be extended outside of combat, like getting your companions to sneak though a sleeping enemy camp, but I've not seen this done in any 3D RPG I've ever played.

So my vote is for no party unless they act usefully in combat.

This post has been edited 2 time(s), it was last edited by daveanti: 12-04-2022 10:53.

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Message: | composed: 12-04-2022 12:12 Go to the top of this page Zum Ende der Seite springen
dugedog

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I would still enjoy the game even with out the party. This is coming from someone who loved Ultima 8 though. Big Grin
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Message: | composed: 12-04-2022 12:53 Go to the top of this page Zum Ende der Seite springen
CastChaos CastChaos is a male

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Yes, I can live without a party!

I didn't even know one was planned for Redemption.
I wasn't surprised that UIX had none, after all it was a 3D game with actual elevations and all kind of environments. Whenever I think of UIX having companions, I think of how hard would it be to handle them west of Paws, between trees, on elevations, among swamps, especially when I decide to climb up the hills to the mausoleum. They would also just get stuck between objects on the way from Paws to Yew.

So, I'm probably actually happier without a party in Redemption.
Going alone gives extreme freedom feeling, increases the adventure factor and OH BOY the agony of being alone between hills far from any human settlement, oh how wonderful it is!!

A 3D game with and without companions is actually two very different games!
The entire world layout needs to be different, enemies needs to be more and coming from more directions, some needs to be bigger/stronger and the puzzles need to be entirely different.

Companions were great in U3-5, where they appeared only in battle/action fields (as I recall), but sometimes annoyed me in U6-7, because although those had mostly flat surfaces, too, but companions could get stuck and get in the way, especially in swamps where I tried to avoid Avatar getting poisoned, but then the companions stepped in there just because it's so trendy to glow green.

I'm sure I will love Redemption either way.
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Message: | composed: 12-04-2022 13:56 Go to the top of this page Zum Ende der Seite springen
Rejor

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It wouldn't bother me... plenty of games have one player only. But, I can imagine that you would need to change the storyline a bit to accompany one player rather than a whole party.

However, don't rush things. Take your time to make the party system; afterall, that is what you set out to do in the beginning. I'm sure you'll be more satisfied making a more complete Ultima remake, unless you can be satisfied making a few comprimises for the sake of finishing it earlier.
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Message: | composed: 12-04-2022 14:00 Go to the top of this page Zum Ende der Seite springen
SorenDat SorenDat is a female

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Yes, I can live without a party.
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Message: | composed: 12-04-2022 15:04 Go to the top of this page Zum Ende der Seite springen
Hina Hina is a female

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Well... of course I could 'live' without a party, but that's not to say that I wouldn't miss it. The one thing I don't care at all for in Ultima is combat, so I wouldn't mind any imbalances. But I see how the MW engine isn't really fitted for companions...
Anyway, what's really important to me are the characters. So, if you decide to not make them follow me around, neither do neglect them! If the Companions of the Avatar are featured, do play an important role in the plot and have their open ends and story arcs resolved, the game will stay true to an Ultima nevertheless. Smile
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Message: | composed: 12-04-2022 15:39 Go to the top of this page Zum Ende der Seite springen
Fred-A.

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I am used to he single player mode which you get in UI,II,VIII and IX. In the multiplayer ones, you invariably equipped the entire party as best you could, knowing that final success would not be achieved unless all party members had the most effective weapons and armour. Only in UIII were certain party members with specialist skills essential. No - single player mode is absolutely fine for me.

Fred.


Try XYZZY - it might work!
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Message: | composed: 12-04-2022 15:40 Go to the top of this page Zum Ende der Seite springen
Corv

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Thread Starter Thread Started by Corv

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The companions would still be in the game of course and play a very big role in it. They would not be cut out of the game, just not constantly following you around on your adventure.
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