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Message:
 | composed: 28-05-2021 13:40 |
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Shucky 
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| | Favourite Ultima: Ultima Underworld 2 |
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What would you like to see in your ideal rpg? Dare to dream big!
Here are some examples from my own perspective:
I would like to feel the full range of emotions. BG2 was a game that gave me sentimental tears at least a couple times, and I also found the end of U9A to be touching. Comic relief is also important; BG2 had it, as did UW2 and other Ultimas. I also like to get creeped out; Thief 3 had one mission that spooked me out so much I had to turn the lights on.
I would like to interact with the world as in real life. I should have options that actually let me change that world, and the time it takes and quality of products should depend on the tools you use and your knowledge. There are so many examples. With a tree, I should have the possibillity (though not guaranteed success) of climbing it, harvesting some leaves or branches, defoliating it, or felling it. I should have the chance to dig soil with hands or shovel, put the soil in a container, and leaving a hole that gets bigger as I go. I should be able to scoop liquid with a bucket, and spill some of it out on the ground to make it wet. I should be able to smash into rock with a pick, make smaller rocks and pebbles, and possibly harvest ores.
I would like to be able to have all the movement options of real life. In water I should be able to dive, swim, float, wade. I should be able to at least have a chance to climb just about anything, depending on the circumstances. I should be able to sit or lay on the ground. I should be able to squeeze or crawl through narrow spaces. Gothic had a lot of good movement options.
I want to have to spend a little time gaining knowledge in things to increase my options and improve the quality of the results. I think that some jobs shoulld take more time than others, but still short enough so as not to get tedious.
I want the physical, mental and emotional status of beings to be more true to life, to change and have effects on abilities and behavior. I want to need drink, food, rest, comfort. I want the screen to go darker if vision is impaired, or sound to be muffled if I am deafened. I want npcs to have needs including self-actualization, entertainment and social interaction. The Sims games did some things like that.
I want the npcs and other creatures in the game to be fully independant beings who grow and have needs and make choices and build relationships and communicate. I want social relationships, a real economy and law. I want npcs to have their own ambitions and work toward them according to their abilities and personalities. I want their conversation to reflect their own unique perspective, memories, personality, etc.
I want new events to have a permanence and history to unfold and be remembered in ways that are true to real lilfe. For example, if someone hits someone and others see it, the event should effect and be remembered differently by each one. Different types of events shoulld have different memorability values that vary according to how close someone is to an event, the nature of the event, etc.
Finally, there should be an interesting story and and other plots should be able to arise spontaneously. The world should never die. You should be able to have kids and pass your spirit onto them, to become reborn. Europa 1400 was a game that had that feature.
What are examples of things you'd like to experience in an rpg?
This post has been edited 7 time(s), it was last edited by Shucky: 28-05-2021 14:52.
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| User Profil |
| Message:
| composed: 30-05-2021 12:12 |
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Shucky
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| | Favourite Ultima: Ultima Underworld 2 |
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Thread Starter 
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In another thread I started thinking about the issue of graphics. What rpgs had the minimum graphics that you could enjoy?
These days I prefer the first person view, and while I enjoyed UW2, I would prefer a look more like Thief 2 or MW. Oblivion was beautiful, but I think they could have made a better game if they made more true-to-life 'living' npcs and world, rather than just appearances. Also, if there is one thing I liked about U9A and Gothic was that they were almost seamless; the only loading occured at dungeon entrances. In Oblivion, they tried to get around that by allowing npcs to cross entrances of buildings, cities and dungeons.
For the top-down isomorphic view, I prefer a look like UO, Baldur's Gate or Icewind Dale. If it's an mmorpg, or the story is good enough, then I can still enjoy those graphics. Even U7 and U6 aren't too bad, but the earlier Ultimas don't hold my interest anymore because of the appearance.
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| composed: 30-05-2021 12:37 |
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Corv
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| Location: Tirol / Austria |
| | Favourite Ultima: Ultima 7 Black Gate |
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I think even Ultima 6 is still looking good. The graphics create a certain atmosphere that only Ultima 6 had (that's also why I personally think it would be one of the most challenging remakes IF you want to capture the soul of the original).
As long as the gameplay is good and the story is great I can live with old school graphics. I think though that developers have to do what they can with whatever style/engine they chose. Some scenes in Ultima 7 still impress me although I don't see 20 different shader and flare effects in it - because they really did what they could with it back then. It depends more on the design itself than on the technical limitations.
Ultima 6-8, Final Fantasy 6, Baldur's Gate,.. they all made a lot out of it.
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my dream RPG? I would have to write a lot about that .. and maybe I will some other time, but I once thought that a mixture between the complexity of Ultima and the pomp of Final Fantasy would be the right direction to go.
I actually think that Bioware went in exactly this direction with Knights of the Old Repubic. I don't say that KOTOR is my absolute dream RPG but I thik that they are definitely going in the right direction. The influence of games like Final Fantasy (in terms of story telling) is obvious and they mix the complex western gameplay with it. I would like to see much more of that, but again, they are moving in the right diretion 
Don't get me wrong, I was never a fan of Japanese RPGs up until a few years ago when I wanted to give themn a chance because I always heard that the stories are so good. Once I gave it a true chance I was able to look behind the often seemingly childish "exterior" and I saw how much effort was put into it. That's why I am quite impressed by the storylines and also the way they were told in for example Final Fantasy VII and X.
That being said, I cannot wait for Mass Effect. You, Shucky, should especially be looking forward to that game, because they will really move this genre forward when it comes to conversations!
Check out this Mass Effect Video to get an idea of their conversation system:
Mass Effect Video 1 (right-click -> save-as)
(102 MB)
listening to:
Smashing Pumpkins
Silversun Pickups
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| User Profil |
| Message:
| composed: 30-05-2021 15:11 |
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Shucky
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| | Favourite Ultima: Ultima Underworld 2 |
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Thread Starter
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| quote: |
Originally posted by Corv
That being said, I cannot wait for Mass Effect. You, Shucky, should especially be looking forward to that game, because they will really move this genre forward when it comes to conversations!
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It looks like BioWare made this one, it has well-scripted dialogue, as in Baldur's Gate. The last time I tried a space game it was Star Control 2, which I still think is a great game. Overall I prefer medieval settings, anything from high fantasy to no fantasy, instead of high tech. I think it's that I prefer something closer to nature. About the dialogue, it looks like a great script, and while I would like to have those script options, I would like to have many more conversation options, if possible, along the lines of what I discussed in some detail on the other thread. I like a good story within an otherwise 'living' world of interdependant 'living' characters.
This game seems to go even further to develop more of an appearance of a living world, eg, npc faces move realistically as they speak. I could enjoy playing it, but I prefer more functional realism than visual realism, where you could stop anyone at any given time, ask them how they feel and what they are doing, for example, and the answer depends on various factors and changes with circumstances. Like I said, that is just one small example or the kind of living characters I hope to see in a game someday.
To expand just a bit further, I think every npc and player should be able to strike up conversation with anyone else, engage in small talk, gossip, joke, boast, lie, flatter, make requests/gifts/exchanges/demands for info/items/actions, ask opinions and try to influence about specific things, as well as make physical gestures and attempt physical contact, and any other option which someone might come up with and include in the program. And within a dynamic world, it's unlikely any two conversation with the same character would be the same unless you just greet each other.
It seems to me that it would be easy to do if starting a conversation, or eavedropping on one, would pause the game and open a menu-driven interface, and that the subprogram would not place nearly as high a demand on system resources as the graphics would. In fact, I think something like this could have been done back in the 80s, at least the conversaton part, if not managing a world of characters requiring constant decisions. Actually, I would only expect for characters within visual range to be checked for decisions periodically, and the rest less frequently, as system resources allow. And the world 'event memory' would update once a day, in the late night, to purge away all the relatively useless memories.
This post has been edited 1 time(s), it was last edited by Shucky: 30-05-2021 15:13.
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| User Profil |
| Message:
| composed: 30-05-2021 21:15 |
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Shucky
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| | Favourite Ultima: Ultima Underworld 2 |
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Thread Starter
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I guess I would have to withhold my judgement until I actually tried it. Certainly, I believe conversation with plenty of options is possible, it's just that the video didn't seem to show many. In theory, there should be a myriad of expressions/gestures/acrtions/statements/questions at any point in a conversation, even aside from a seemingly limitless subset within some of those, such as statements and questions on a huge array of changing topics. As we've said, it wouldn't be possible with the MW engine, it's something that would be programmed from scratch.
Maybe it would be a bit extreme to say we could do without any scripting, but it would good if the computer could determine the right kind of response to fit the npc and situation, but not exactly the same way twice in a row, or if you did ask the very same thing, and the npc is kind enough to repeat himself, he might start with "I just told you", or "how many times are you going to ask me that? or "i'm not going to repeat myself", etc. There are various common phrases used in similar situations, it doesn't have to be the exact same one each time, and can have associated with it the type of npc or situation that would warrant its use. In addition, certain phrases could be associated with certain individual or groups of npcs.
Of course, those throw-away lines, which people use a lot in typical conversations, are just the tip of the iceberg. If there is a global event memory, and each topic has a lot of variables associated with it, then npcs could discuss their observations, things they've heard, and what they 'thought' and 'felt' about them. To those who are oriented towards the story, this may all seem like idle chatter, and perhaps it is from that standpoint, but in a dynamic world it would come closer to real, because the only static lines would be the plot lines, while with the other part of the system, you could *discuss* topics and influence their attitudes and behavior, and it could be any npc, not just ones that are intended to follow you in the plot, for example.
What I am saying is to have a system where you may enjoy interaction with the dynamic world the npcs are involved in so much that you may not even bother with the plot and still have a lot of fun as part of their world. A world where you could apprentice a trade, build a shop, announce your services and npcs will come to you to fulfill that need or desire. Where female npcs might flirt with you because they have a goal of marrying and having kids, etc. Where npc kids ask questions so that they can learn more things about their world. Where your reputation can grow and people naturally seek your advice and leadership. Where you could set off with followers and found your own town. If the player doesn't want to bother becoming 'real' in their world, they don't ever have to and still can finish the plot, but for others who enjoy a virtual world, it would be a real treat.
I guess what it comes down to is that variety is the spice of life, and the more various the options, the better. The beuatiful thing is that those inclined to limit their choices would always be free to do so, while others who like to experiment would find a liveable, lliving world.
This post has been edited 2 time(s), it was last edited by Shucky: 30-05-2021 21:17.
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| User Profil |
| Message:
| composed: 31-05-2021 02:44 |
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A semi-automated variety of responses mixed in with the unique dialogue of that NPC could work. I get the feeling from the movie that each NPC merely has an expanded tree of responses to different coercion tactics. Certainly an improvement, but it doesn't yet seem like a quantum leap. I could well be eating both feet and a hat in the future when Mass Effect comes out.
I generally prefer fantasy to sci-fi, although I really like most cross-over systems (e.g. Shadowrun).
I think some approximation of the type of world you mentioned is possible right now. Fable for the XBox did a decent alpha version of having a life outside of adventuring. The Final Fantasy series has always had mini games and item hunts that, in a way, could be considered extensions into the game world that didn't require progress with the main quest.
Making an immersive world takes a staff of writers that I just don't see with most games nowadays. True, it makes sense to have one or two people write the main plot, but presumably you could have other writers who just work on game life (e.g. parties, home life, side quests, etc.). Yet it's certainly feasible cost-wise, and it's very strange to me how only recently (e.g. Fable) there's been some experimenting with having a lot to do that's main plot independent. It may be that developers don't want to overwhelm the player, or to offer a very focused product. Still, if presented in the right way, I think one can have a great main game and an equally interesting non main game.
Direhaggis
Lead Writer/Editor
2D Art
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| Message:
| composed: 31-05-2021 03:09 |
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Shucky
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| | Favourite Ultima: Ultima Underworld 2 |
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Thread Starter
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| quote: |
Originally posted by -Direhaggis-
Still, if presented in the right way, I think one can have a great main game and an equally interesting non main game. |
Here's another idea. What if the game had numerous main plot templates, and if there is no main plot for some period of time, the game creates a new, different main plot using existing npcs. Couple that with an evolving history and the ability to pass your 'spirit' to one of your children. Old cities can be destroyed and new ones can be built up. Rare artifacts might be unearthed to reveal secrets from the world's ancient past. And without the passage of knowledge to the young, primitive peoples grunt and gesture and fight with rocks and sticks, having to learn everything the hard way unless others help them progress faster. Yes, it would have to be sophisticated to include small societies at various stages of social development and nature, good, evil and in between. Anyway, I intended this thread for dreaming. Are there some other things you would like to be able to do in an rpg?
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| User Profil |
| Message:
| composed: 31-05-2021 05:55 |
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A wholesale revision of the main plot would be tricky. I think it could best be done if there were single frame cutscenes like in Fallout and Fallout 2. That way, you basically have different ultimate goals to achieve based on whether you fail/succeed at some major plot element, if you're generally good or evil, etc.
Again, though, revising an entire plot structure based on a decision by the player is no small task--unless the plot were already kinda thin on dialogue and substance. Sadly this wouldn't be a problem for many RPG's.
If you take the idea and apply it to different sections of a main plot, that seems more do-able. Specifically, certain segments of a main plot could be brought back to one's attention that've been left on hold for awhile.
The best example I can think of that really needed this is Daggerfall. If I recall correctly, you absolutely must initially meet some woman to learn about the ghosts that plague the city of the dead king. Otherwise, you can't proceed with the main plot. Ever.
As an example of this 'kick in the ass' approach to dragging one's feet on a main quest: let's say you need to get a critical item, such as the Hirsute Chicken of Dr. FeelGood. Let's further say you fail to ask NPC Y about how to get the Chicken to avert the Dark Prophecy Ritual of Darkness.
It'd be good to have some script like:
'If NPC Y not contacted after 3 months game time, NPC A will contact the player, mention what's happened in his/her absence, and indicate the new location of the Hirsute Chicken of Dr. FeelGood.'
So basically inaction, or time, eventually has some consequence on the main plot, and changes how to pursue the main plot. Maybe it's a little like the above example, maybe it suddenly involves 10 extra hours of gameplay.
I think it would be more realistic while still, hopefully, not making the player feel rushed. Chickens have an absurd amount of patience in these matters, after all.
Direhaggis
Lead Writer/Editor
2D Art
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| Message:
| composed: 31-05-2021 15:51 |
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Kultan
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| | Favourite Ultima: Ultima 7 Black Gate |
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| quote: |
Originally posted by -Direhaggis-
So basically inaction, or time, eventually has some consequence on the main plot, and changes how to pursue the main plot. Maybe it's a little like the above example, maybe it suddenly involves 10 extra hours of gameplay.
I think it would be more realistic while still, hopefully, not making the player feel rushed. Chickens have an absurd amount of patience in these matters, after all. |
You see this in Fallout. If the player does not make it to Necropolis within a set number of (110) days, all of the ghouls are slaughtered by a super mutant invasion. When the player gets there, there is nothing but dead ghouls and patrolling super mutants. The ghoul quests (Set's and ghoul leader's) are therefore unattainable. There are a few more examples of this in the game that occur beneath the hood (whereas the player is aware of the time limit on the main Water Chip quest).
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