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Symbols and their meaning

 
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Break Man
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 10, 2021 9:52 am    Post subject:

Actually, there's absolutely nothing evil about a Pentagram. Not even the inverted symbol, which is often mistaken as a Satanic mutilation of the pentacle, is a malevolent sign.

http://altreligion.about.com/library/weekly/aa100102a.htm

In fact, the Pentagram has only ever been seen as an evil symbol in very recent times, and that's just because some gothic shmoe probably started it as a rumor.. (Thusly it likely never had, nor will have, evil properties.) There's really no reason to have an aversion to the pentacle once you know where it came from.

You should ask your friend to do some research on it, Justme. There's nothing wrong with a pentagram, in fact quite a few religions have embraced the use of the symbol. (Pay special attention to the particular pentacle used in Freemasonry.) Either that, or he's just searching for the right excuse to not play the games in question. Laughing There are more than enough bad reviews for Doom 3 for a lot of people to be afraid to play it.

I'm amazed that so many people have been put under the impression that the Pentagram is evil. I once saw a kid suspended from school just for doodling it on a paper... It's sad.
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Corv
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 10, 2021 10:34 am    Post subject:

Youre right Break Man. But I have to add that since satanism uses the turned around Pentagram it is now seen as a "bad" Symbol. Also the swastika used by Nazis isnt a "bad" symbol in the first place, but turned into one because of how it was used. So I can understand that people see it as a "bad" symbol, but I absolutely cannot understand that people have such problems with the sysmobl alone that they start to not play games or things like that. In my eyes thats quite naive.
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Thepal
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 10, 2021 12:07 pm    Post subject:

It's because of the fact that Christian religions tended to look very badly on things from other religions. The pentagram is a non-christian symbol, and is therefore considered evil. Especially since it is connected to wicca/witchcraft which Christian religions are obviously against. The inverted pentagram is connected to satanism too, as Corv said. Some even consider the Star of David to be evil because it is Jewish and therefore anti-christian.
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Nymeria
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 10, 2021 12:43 pm    Post subject:

Hmmm...pretty interesting discussion here.
It is true, Christian religion has a very deep influence on the way Europeans and Americans see symbols. So sometimes I feel strange if some stupid paints a pentagram upside down on a wall (and thinks it's cool...)
But in the end I think: it's only a painting. Apart from the meaning people give to it, it is only a thing painted on the wall, and for me it has no meaning, if I decide so. And, if I think logically, it can not have any power at all, being nothing but some paint on a wall (or some pixels on a monitor). It can't summon devils, nor harm me in any way.
That's nothing but superstition, like the stuff about black cats or ladders, or salt and oil on the floor.

As for the Swastika (puts her glasses on the tip of her nose, to look more "intellectual") it was only a symbol, usually for the sun or for continuity, and was originally called Gammadion (because it was made of four greek letters called gamma). You can find it reproduced everywhere on ancient stuff, even in chains or series, or as a sort of texture. and has different meanings in different cultures. There is even a kanji (Japanese ideogram) that is swastika-shaped.

Btw, Justme, tell your friend that he shouldn't worry too much for this things. I understand his feelings, but if he exaggerates he might end up like a friend of mine (24 years old!), who crosses herself and says "today's a holy day" if someone names the "Ianara" (a witch of Southern Italy folk tales) because she fears that the witch might kill her when she's sleeping...

So, a little logic on these things never hurts.
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Corv
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 10, 2021 12:54 pm    Post subject:

People put too much meaning in many things. When I see people protesting because of Marilyn Manson etc I simply cant believe it. How can people be so stupid? But htats another topic.

As for the symbols: It always depents on the one who uses it - what he tries to express with it.
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Break Man
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 11, 2021 11:25 pm    Post subject:

Quote:
As for the symbols: It always depents on the one who uses it - what he tries to express with it.


I could not agree with this more.

The evil in an inverted Pentacle is entirely made up. Satanism is not an official religion, technically, considering it's rather new and unrefined at best.

To me, it's humorous when people paint pentagrams onto walls believing them to be a spiteful sign of evil. (Especially when they can't even get it at the right angle.) But then I get depressed when people actually look at the symbol as a sign of evil.

If I drew a weird swirly on a paper and told everyone it was a symbol of evil, would anyone take me seriously? What if I just flipped the cross upside down and said it meant "Jesus is evil!" Would anyone take THAT seriously?

I certainly wouldn't. But time and popularity causes things to become evil in of themselves. And as long as people continue to find the Pentacle as an evil symbol, regardless of whether they worship or avert it, then they only serve exactly what the first Satanists wanted them to do.
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aubergine
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 12, 2021 11:12 am    Post subject:

JustMe wrote:
I've got a friend who's also mad about rpg's
but one thing that put's him off and that's the use of
pentagrams etc.. in games, and as at least as I know
from Ultima 8,9 that pentagrams is used in spellcasting.

So my question is : Will you use pentagrams in the game
or not, or will you have a method of disabling it if you do ?

he also won't play doom3.


I just had to have a giggle at the idea someone wouldn't play Doom3 because there are pentacles in it. No objection to the SOUL DESTROYING VIOLENCE AND ENDLESS BLOODBATH OF ABOMINABLE FORMS OF UN-LIFE, it's just some immoral use of geometry.

Would it be possible to have the pupils of the Avatar, (who has been sullied in Pagan), be themselves GLOWING RED DOWN-POINTY PENTACLES which shoot EXPLODING LASER BLOOD BULLETS in a manner which even athiests would find offensive?

That would also be funny.
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Corv
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 12, 2021 11:24 am    Post subject:

aubergine wrote:

I just had to have a giggle at the idea someone wouldn't play Doom3 because there are pentacles in it. No objection to the SOUL DESTROYING VIOLENCE AND ENDLESS BLOODBATH OF ABOMINABLE FORMS OF UN-LIFE, it's just some immoral use of geometry.


Yep thats exactly the blindness of some people that I cant understand....
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Withstand the Fury
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 12, 2021 4:39 pm    Post subject:

Corv wrote:
People put too much meaning in many things. When I see people protesting because of Marilyn Manson etc I simply cant believe it. How can people be so stupid? But htats another topic.


Well, some people feel there is a genuine problem with these things that is worth objecting to, and who is to say that their belief is not valid?

I mean...okay, Marylin Manson has obviously realized that the best money-maker is controversy, and so he obviously plays that angle up A LOT.

Does that mean that people aren't allowed to say that he's disgusting (which he is, or at least I find him to be) and shouldn't be on the radio (which I wouldn't agree with, except maybe inasmuch as I don't see any artistic merit to his 'music'...I may be a bit of a snob in that regard, though)? And if people do find him disgusting and want something done about it, are they wrong to articulate their beliefs?

Corv wrote:
As for the symbols: It always depents on the one who uses it - what he tries to express with it.


True, but to address this and also aubergine's last post, do keep in mind that a symbol can sometimes carry more weight than the rest of a game like Doom 3. For example, look at the concept screenshots for Redemption and the New King on the main page. Specifically, look at this one. On the Media Page, there is a little note by the picture that remarks that the cross is only a placeholder.

Why the need for the disclaimer? Isn't a cross just one more symbol?

No, no, it really isn't. Not to me, and evidently not to others. So why is it such a surprise that another geometric form carries equal weight with someone else?

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Corv
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 12, 2021 5:08 pm    Post subject:

Withstand the Fury wrote:
Well, some people feel there is a genuine problem with these things that is worth objecting to, and who is to say that their belief is not valid?


If people think he is disgusting its of course valid because its a personal opinion and noone can blame them (its like you only dont like the actual shape of a pentagcle). The problem starts when people claim that he is responisble for the death of people because of his music, because there its not simply a personal opinion anymore. I am no Manson Fan, but I know that aggressive music makes me calm again. Its a vent. So maybe he even saved some lives. Making big protests etc againt him is simply closing the eyes and being ignorant. "Someone has to be guilty, but for sure its not me" - it reminds me a bit of the medieval burning of "witches". Why not first start to look at the problems that the parents make for their children.... why not look for the guilt there? What I am trying to say is that I dont like fanatism of any kind. And this is just as bad as being a fanatic follower of satan.


Withstand the Fury wrote:
No, no, it really isn't. Not to me, and evidently not to others. So why is it such a surprise that another geometric form carries equal weight with someone else?


Yes but you have to keep in mind why people put it somewhere. When someone puts a symbol in a game for some cool effect noone should feel offended. If someone puts it somewhere because he believes in it its a different story. Again: It always depents on the one who uses it - what he tries to express with it.

I dont deny that people connect pentacle with satan and crosses with christian believe in god. Thats not the problem in my eyes.
So we didnt put the info there becasue I dont want people to think that we are Christians, I put it there becasue people should not think that we put a new religion in the game. It would be the same if I would put a star of david or a pentacle there.

The problem is when people put their own meaning in it. Pentacle in Doom? Of course ID must pray to satan. I can remember those rediculous discusions.

People dont allow their children to watch the Simpsons becasue they think are evil, people try to cencor games becasue they think that they are evil... people protest against music because they think its evil...all those things cross a certain border that should not be crossed... And at the same time they have the problems right infront of their nose, like children that dont get enough love or dont get enough attention what makes them aggressive in the end... There lies the root of the problems and not in a funny looking musician that sings about dead and the devil.

Ok common lets watch innocent people die in a sensless war in TV, no problem, but hey keep away the evil symbol from me in that evil game.... Thats the perversion I cannot understand
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Withstand the Fury
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 12, 2021 9:12 pm    Post subject:

Corv wrote:
If people think he is disgusting its of course valid because its a personal opinion and noone can blame them (its like you only dont like the actual shape of a pentagcle). The problem starts when people claim that he is responisble for the death of people because of his music, because there its not simply a personal opinion anymore. I am no Manson Fan, but I know that aggressive music makes me calm again. Its a vent. So maybe he even saved some lives.


It's a case of which statistic you'd care to quote, I suppose. I mean, whether people claim that he saves or destroys lives, they're making a claim based on the numbers that someone else collected and interpreted. Probably. Maybe on personal opinion/experience too.

Corv wrote:
Making big protests etc againt him is simply closing the eyes and being ignorant. "Someone has to be guilty, but for sure its not me" - it reminds me a bit of the medieval burning of "witches". Why not first start to look at the problems that the parents make for their children.... why not look for the guilt there? What I am trying to say is that I dont like fanatism of any kind. And this is just as bad as being a fanatic follower of satan.


Fair enough, and I largely agree. Fanatic adherence to any philosophy can yield dangerous results. Is it fanaticism to want to dissociate one's self from pagan symbology when one's own beliefs do not run in that direction? It would be no different than, say, someone of Muslim faith attempting to avoid association with cruciform symbols.

Corv wrote:
Yes but you have to keep in mind why people put it somewhere. When someone puts a symbol in a game for some cool effect noone should feel offended. If someone puts it somewhere because he believes in it its a different story. Again: It always depents on the one who uses it - what he tries to express with it.


Obviously the developers are free to use whatever effects and symbols they choose, and there is no doubt that they have their own intentions in doing so. However, the developers should understand that they are making a product for the general public, and thus must at least attempt to understand how members of the general public will view what ends up in the game. You or I might say that to use a pentagram symbol in an Ultima remake/offshoot is fair game, since it's been done before, but that doesn't mean that everyone who downloads our respective mods will see it our way.

Corv wrote:
I dont deny that people connect pentacle with satan and crosses with christian believe in god. Thats not the problem in my eyes.
So we didnt put the info there becasue I dont want people to think that we are Christians, I put it there becasue people should not think that we put a new religion in the game. It would be the same if I would put a star of david or a pentacle there.


I know...it was just my example. I understand, obviously, that the only logical symbol to appear on any temple in Britannia would be the ankh. Unless you're bringing back the Fellowship, that is.

Corv wrote:
The problem is when people put their own meaning in it. Pentacle in Doom? Of course ID must pray to satan. I can remember those rediculous discusions.


True, and the assertion is rightly known to be ludicrous. But people will always put their own meanings into everything. I know people who will say that Lord of the Rings is pagan in nature, and I know people who will say that it has a very Christian message in it (which I admit I think it does, given Tolkein's wonderful work as an apologetic). In the end, it's all interpretation, and we as developers can't trust the public to share our meanings.

Corv wrote:
People dont allow their children to watch the Simpsons becasue they think are evil, people try to cencor games becasue they think that they are evil... people protest against music because they think its evil...all those things cross a certain border that should not be crossed... And at the same time they have the problems right infront of their nose, like children that dont get enough love or dont get enough attention what makes them aggressive in the end... There lies the root of the problems and not in a funny looking musician that sings about dead and the devil.


You're right, too, in that people do have their scapegoats...and we, as developers, are two of them. Wink

Corv wrote:
Ok common lets watch innocent people die in a sensless war in TV, no problem, but hey keep away the evil symbol from me in that evil game.... Thats the perversion I cannot understand


It's hypocritical in some senses, but only some. We don't know the full nature of this person who objects to the pentagram. I mean, they may very well also oppose the war in Iraq, and/or the violence in Doom 3. We simply don't know. So let's not paint them into a corner, what say?

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JustMe
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 13, 2021 10:49 am    Post subject:

I think for symbols in games to have the effect the developer wants
to portray with it, the developer should attach meaning to that symbol.

Just putting the symbol somewhere in the gameworld and expect the
gamer makes his own conclusion will create x amount of people
with x amount of opinions about the use of that symbol

In Ultima you used a pentagram as part of the binding of spells.
Now imagine what controversy you as a game developer would create
by replacing every symbol with christian and muslim symbols.
And for example you need to combine those symbols or use both at the
same time to get that spell to be binded in your spell book

Now to go even further - Just imagine to win the game you need to kill
the "god" of every religion represented in that game.

But now lets take religion out of the picture and suddenly nothing would
be wrong with the above anymore.

It's obvious that by using the symbol of one religion will eventually
distance some people from other religions.

But maybe im wrong but I don't think these people deserve to play
these games if they don't have the ability to have a open mind.
They will find something evil in tetris for that matter Wink
There will definitely be people out there who thinks that computers is
evil too. Wink
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PePPy
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 27, 2021 9:12 pm    Post subject:

the pentagramm is formed like irtue's of the codex of ending truth
the Rune |><| means "durchbruch" or "pass through" you can believe what you want but the Rune symbols on the pentagram are as oldest use in germanic mythology. England the Burthstate frpm lord british has also celtic or viking sources. We all have it. The pentagramm is in my believe a art of inner human order with an way who is it worth to make an pass throug love and courage you have a way to live for humanity. Which humans on earth instead of the lamas in tibet live the live like jesus (a good instance 4 avatar of humanity)?
but atm the money rules our live and so there are no passport through love and courage we have true order chaos
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