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DmC
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 26, 2021 9:14 am    Post subject: Story line and NPCs

First of all, this is an awsome project. I hated U9 such a dissappointment.

Well ,i see you are doing NPC scueduals and i had a thought a long time ago about story line, quests, and NPc scudualing that mabey you guys could use.

I love open ended RPGs, I love RPGs where you can make any and every character choice, and i love living breathing worlds, so i had an idea to make an RPG with a story line that moves weather you are a part of the action or not. I.E. at twenty minutes into the game, two npcs are going to have a meeting. If you stop one from making it, the stroy line branches, if you stop both from making it, the story line branches another way, and if you had no idea there was ever a meeting to begin with there is a third story line branch. This lets the player have full choice as to his involvment in the game. Stopping the meeting from happining stops a war futher down the story line, perhaps gains the PC some fame, not stopping the meeting casues the war to happen, mabey increasing the prices of commodities ect. So if the PC decides to ignore the strange pessent who gave him some odd advice, and totally ignores the "Story" of the game, he is still impacted by events that are occuring with or without him. Kill a General before a battle, and the outcome of the war changes, help the bad guys and futher the evil plot of the story, stumble onto a chance meeting and win a special item ect ect. the possible story branches are endless. Punish the PC for not partaking in the story, reward his exploration by haveing him stumble apon plot devices he wasnt supposed to know about.

I was ganna save this for my own game, but im far too lazy really. however with morrowind, perhaps i could make it work, mabey even use UOX3's powerful java scripting..... but i just want to see someone use this inovation casue i prolly wont

Well there is my idea, use it, modify it, or ignore it
but whatever you do, keep up the good work!
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Break Man
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 26, 2021 9:45 am    Post subject:

Quote:
Punish the PC for not partaking in the story, reward his exploration by haveing him stumble apon plot devices he wasnt supposed to know about.


When you get to the point of punishing the character for not participating in the storyline, it gets pretty ridiculous. Though I don't know if this is the exact wording you wanted to make or not... It's better that the player is simply confronted with difference rather than "punishment". People don't play games to be punished... Well... Some might, but that would be raising the maturity tag a bit...

I like the idea you demonstrate with the meeting. The problem with that is time constraint. For that to work, the meeting would have to be held on a certain date at a certain location that is preplanned. It would have to be done carefully, so that the player wouldn't be racing itself into exhaustion just to keep up with the meeting date. A bit of work there. This is why most games use "flags", as they not only keep redundant work to a minimum on project developers, but it's a convenience for fast and slow players alike.

Though your idea has merit, it sounds like something more to be dwelled upon however.
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Corv
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 26, 2021 12:07 pm    Post subject:

@DmC: Things like that are already planned, but thanks for your suggestion!

The player wont be punished for not partaking in the story, its just up to him in some places to do what he thinks is the best. But of course it will have negative/positive effects.

Of course this would not be "ridiculous", like mentioned above (but maybe BreakMan just chose the wrong word), not at all, it just wouldn't fit in the free, open gameplay we want to create.
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Chlorthos_Dragon
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 26, 2021 7:03 pm    Post subject:

Well, in terms of time, I don't think we'll be setting plot-specific events to occur at a certain time, say, 2 hours into the game or so. I think that would make for a less enjoyable game to play. You will have choices, and the world will change because of them. We still, as ever, want U9R to be a game of Redemption (duh, the name ; ) but also provide the player with the opportunity to complete the game as an evil character, something that has practically never been done in Ultima, except if you count U7BG (the opportunity to walk through the black gate instead of destroy it, dooming Britannia to the Guardian), and U8 (While heavily debated, no matter what you say, the Avatar doomed Pagan by destroying their Titans, as well as summoning Pyros who quickly killed one of the sorcerers). I think this goes in line with the thought that Ultima, at its core, as a game, has to let the player make the decisions, live their life, *play their role* : ) I've always felt that the Avatar should be *you*, or whoever you want him/her to be. That's what we'll insure is in U9R. So no worries ; )

Thanks for the question!
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Corv
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 26, 2021 7:13 pm    Post subject:

And in addition to your "I love open ended RPGs" statement: We implement more possibilities for the players to live their lives than ever done before in a RPG.
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Antagonist
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 26, 2021 8:23 pm    Post subject:

How about letting me play another Ultima ? That would be enough for me. Smile

I think the players actions throughout the game should narrow his choices later on. If you behaved like a jerk half the game you shouldn't be allowed to quickly turn to "the light side" again. That's just an invitation to powergaming and unrealistically to me. A player should feel the consequences of his doing, and maybe even by closing certain paths to him. This would encourage careful roleplaying as well as making it more replayable.
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Break Man
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 27, 2021 8:04 am    Post subject:

Quote:
but also provide the player with the opportunity to complete the game as an evil character, something that has practically never been done in Ultima, except if you count U7BG (the opportunity to walk through the black gate instead of destroy it, dooming Britannia to the Guardian),


On the contrary, this was technically not an evil deed. Between what was discussed on this very board, and a fanfiction title on the Dragon Press based on this action, you are not made aware whether Britannia is doomed to the Guardian or not. You just know that you've made it to Earth, and are completely unaware of the consequences whether they exist or not.

Quote:
If you behaved like a jerk half the game you shouldn't be allowed to quickly turn to "the light side" again.


I think a sense of proportion to be involved.

Example: You've been an arse most of the game, throwing fecal matter at the beggars and beating up peasants for their lunch money. However, don't you think you can be redeemed if you, perhaps, saved an entire city from destruction by the hands of demons?

Now... If you lived your life the same way, and just passed on a gold piece to a passing broke beggar, then that would seem illogical and a bit lame to be called "seeing the light".

In real life, morality is intention. It is not result. If, in you're heart, you feel you are a good person, then you are. But a videogame cannot work this in unless you're using a psionic game controller. So it might be more realistic to be capable of redeeming a long history of misdeeds with a single really good one.

I only need to bring up Ultima 8. You can't say whether or not the Avatar willfully decided to become evil, despite the fact that you clearly performed a great tragedy. It all comes down to interpretation. Whether he was good or not was all up to your train of thought, not the game.
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Chlorthos_Dragon
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 27, 2021 3:51 pm    Post subject:

"but also provide the player with the opportunity to complete the game as an evil character, something that has practically never been done in Ultima, except if you count U7BG (the opportunity to walk through the black gate instead of destroy it, dooming Britannia to the Guardian),


On the contrary, this was technically not an evil deed. Between what was discussed on this very board, and a fanfiction title on the Dragon Press based on this action, you are not made aware whether Britannia is doomed to the Guardian or not. You just know that you've made it to Earth, and are completely unaware of the consequences whether they exist or not."

Oh, come on... lol... common sense! You saw the big red dude about to come through the gate! You knew he was coming. *shrugs* It's not a huge deal to bicker about, but I do feel like it would have been selfish for the avatar to have escaped and left Britannia to the Guardian. Just my thoughts. : )
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Withstand the Fury
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 27, 2021 5:42 pm    Post subject:

Break Man wrote:
In real life, morality is intention. It is not result. If, in you're heart, you feel you are a good person, then you are.


I feel somewhat in disagreement. I mean, one could live one's life throwing fecal matter at beggars, but based on the fact that one also has a loving marriage and two wonderful children one could consider oneself a good person...in spite of the aforementioned cruelty.

Morality is more than intention. Intention...as the old saying goes, that's what the road to hell uses for pavement. Morality is both intention and action: meaning to do good, and then actually doing it. Otherwise, you can claim to be a good person all you want, but at the end of the day you're still an arsehole who throws dung at beggars. And if you're a dung-slinging arsehole, you really aren't a good person in the end of things, are you?

WtFD
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Operadragon
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 27, 2021 5:46 pm    Post subject:

Chlor,
I tend to agree...I personally don't care if one piece of fanfic justifies you running home or not...

That's basically pleading ignorance ex post facto. I mean, you've worked against the Fellowship the entire game, and then you turn tail and run home?

And don't any of you give me that pompous, "I was planning to do that the whole game" crap. Nobody knows the for the entirity of the game that is even possible until the Guardian taunt right there...

It's one thing if the GAME ITSELF gives you evil options, but not the way the flow worked in UVII.

We are ending an era with this game, so we need to bring closure one way or another....*shrug*
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gprowl
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 09, 2021 10:37 am    Post subject:

Quote:
While heavily debated, no matter what you say, the Avatar doomed Pagan by destroying their Titans, as well as summoning Pyros who quickly killed one of the sorcerers


I don't like to say it, but rigid statements like "no matter what you say" are usually said because either you can't be bothered debating or don't have the evidence to support it.

Regarding the Sorcerer... you -had- to have one of the Acolytes killed to advance the story.

When you summon Pyros, one of three things could happen:

Pyros attempts to break free but is contained by the Sorcerers.
Pyros attempts to break free, finds a weak point in Bane (or Vardion) and yourself, kills Bane/Vardion and knocks you out, and Malchir uses the Tongue of Flame to Banish Pyros.
Pyros attempts to break free, finds a weak point in Bane (or Vardion) and yourself, kills Bane/Vardion, knocks you out and breaks free, ending the game.

This all depends on whether you bring a candle and an ignite spell. I think it might depend on something in the dialog as well. The worse you do, the worse the result.

So, Bane or Vardion was killed because you didn't do it properly Smile

Also, when discussing Ethereal Travel, Mythran states something to the effect of 'Know that the Titans will certainly attempt to intercept and stop you. Know also that you have all of Pagan behind you as you attempt to fight them.'

How could it be that Pagan was doomed?

Also, what I loved about U8 was the 'grey' morality. The Avatar has to defeat the Guardian at any cost.

Oh, by the way, I'm Gprowl and have been following Redemption for a while now, and everything is looking nice.
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Break Man
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 10, 2021 10:13 am    Post subject:

Quote:
Oh, come on... lol... common sense! You saw the big red dude about to come through the gate!


Hand it to a companion, so he can shoot the gate after you go through. Simple as that. I don't see it as running at all. You save the world and you get to go home. It seems like common sense in either direction.

I think the main cliffhanger, is that the ending for that does not say whether the Guardian makes it to Britannia or not. Do you doom the world by going through the Black Gate? Maybe, maybe not. It all depends on what you believe would happen once you go through.

Will a companion shoot the gate before the Guardian makes it through? Will the companion be too late? Or were you being a fool and took the wand with you back to Earth? It's not made clear in the ending. So the best you can do is rely on personal belief. It's just like the morality issue in Ultima 8.

Quote:
I feel somewhat in disagreement. I mean, one could live one's life throwing fecal matter at beggars, but based on the fact that one also has a loving marriage and two wonderful children one could consider oneself a good person...in spite of the aforementioned cruelty.


What is the intent of throwing dung at people? Is it for fun? Or is it intended as a good will towards them?

My point was that when you perform an action, so long as you mean well then it is neither evil nor a bad thing. If I believed that these beggars truly wanted the dung I threw at them (And I mean REALLY believe, not pretending or wanting to believe under some patronizing guise.) then my intentions and actions are, for all intents and purposes, good natured.

Would I come off as an arsehole? Of course. But that doesn't actually make me a bad person. If I threw the dung at the beggars and laughed on into the night at their expense... That would be much different.

If I threw dung at the peasants for fun and games... That's where the whole "Redemption" dealie comes in. Where recompense needs to be made.
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 11, 2021 8:07 pm    Post subject:

Break Man wrote:
What is the intent of throwing dung at people? Is it for fun? Or is it intended as a good will towards them?


While I grant that some people have odd and potentially harmful fetishes, I have to say that peasants and beggars wanting to have dung thrown at them seems...well...far-fetched at the very best. More so, even, perhaps.

Break Man wrote:
My point was that when you perform an action, so long as you mean well then it is neither evil nor a bad thing. If I believed that these beggars truly wanted the dung I threw at them (And I mean REALLY believe, not pretending or wanting to believe under some patronizing guise.) then my intentions and actions are, for all intents and purposes, good natured.


In a relative sense, I agree, but again I must point out that which the road to Hell is paved with. Even the noblest of intentions (though good in a relative sense) can, through action or inaction, yield non-good and/or evil results in the absolute sense.

To come back to our dung-throwing example, in a relative sense then yes...if the beggars for some mysterious reason actually wanted the dung for whatever purpose, you would have done good to deliver it to them. However, because of the possibility of the possible disease(s) and bacteria that can come along with animal dung, in an absolute sense you do these beggars an injustice by serving them the dung at high velocity. It would be better to get a shovel and bring them some that way...cleaner, too.

Break Man wrote:
Would I come off as an arsehole? Of course. But that doesn't actually make me a bad person. If I threw the dung at the beggars and laughed on into the night at their expense... That would be much different.

If I threw dung at the peasants for fun and games... That's where the whole "Redemption" dealie comes in. Where recompense needs to be made.


Indeed. On this, I agree entirely...there is great value in redemption, and it is among the most divine of gifts.

Smile WtFD
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Break Man
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 11, 2021 11:13 pm    Post subject:

Quote:
While I grant that some people have odd and potentially harmful fetishes, I have to say that peasants and beggars wanting to have dung thrown at them seems...well...far-fetched at the very best. More so, even, perhaps.


That's not really the point I was making.

If I believed those people actually needed dung to be thrown at them, and I believed they would profit out of it for some screwy reason, then it doesn't make me a bad person for doing it. It only would only make me a bad person if I did it for malicious purposes. Whether the peasants want it means nothing, unless they made me well aware they didn't want it.

As long as what you do, you truly feel is for a good purpose, then you really are not doing anything evil.

For example... Let's replace the dung throwing with showering the peasants in gold coin. Now let's say you decide to throw a coin to a beggar... But as he goes to catch it, it bounces off the ground and into his mouth. He chokes on it and dies. Does that make you evil? You were trying to be a philanthropist and in every way you could, making the attempt with a passion. But something bad happened instead, as a result of a mere mistake.

By your definition of the "Roads to Hell" being paved... Does this make you an evil person?
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Corv
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 11, 2021 11:25 pm    Post subject:

I dont want to disturb your good and evil party here, but I have to post something slightly off-topic here: Take a look at this Tavern thread
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