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Van Hailm
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 09, 2022 11:17 am    Post subject:

Blame U8 for being rushed... Very Happy
The Titans first manifestation:
About the point where I says that the Titans first manifested when the Destroyer came, the quote is from Mythran's "Objective History of Pagan"
Quote:
The followers of the new order became known as Pagans. As they were directed, they began to concentrate their worship, through the black obelisk, choosing the very elements of earth, water, air, and fire as the objects of this worship. Soon the elements began to form into actual beings of tremendous power. When the Destroyer finally appeared, the four beings, the four Titans as we call them today, rose up to fight it.

"The Destruction of the Temple"
Quote:
Then, out from those very eyes lightning shot out, striking the Temple. A few moments later and the great edifice was no more.The cry of shock was heard throughout the land. The Pagans pleaded for the aid of the Titans. They were not disappointed. The four Titans appeared to challenge the invader.

and "The Final Sunlight"
Quote:
In the end, we wondered, would Pagan and Zealan know one from the other as lifeless corpses filling the pyres, the result of the Destroyer's carnage.But then came the Titans.

First rose Lithos, the Mountain King. Then came Stratos, the Mystic Voice, and her sister Hydros, the Lurker. Finally, the blazing image of Pyros, Lord of Flame, appeared to challenge the Destroyer. On the ground, both Pagan and Zealan alike ceased battle, awed by the presence of the these Titanic Elements.

These three texts hint that the Titans appeared around the same time that the Guardian entered the world.
Still I'm wondering at what were the Titans motivations if they weren't allied with the Guardian. Obviously the Guardian has the ability to talk in some people mind a feat no Titans could do, so they would need him to establish a powerbase in Pagan... Once it is done and worship began, why would they need the Obelisk ? I'm not sure it's role as a prayer focus was so much needed as it's no longer needed afterwards. Maybe the Pagan high priest (which weren't Titans followers by then !) had to enact special ritual to channel the worship energies to the four elemental powers... We'll never know. Maybe the Titans were already exisiting in the world as a balance to the Emotion Gods. By allying themselves with the Guardian and overthrowing the Ancient Ones they brought Imbalance upon the world...

On Tempestry and Hydros:
Kalen was a necromancer who had the power to shape blackrock, and it was this shaped blackrock that shielded him from the watery Titan's wrath. The accounts are unclear as it's recorded that Lithos told him of Hydros weakness to Blackrock but others state that it's the water removal that would have "killed" her... Maybe the water in the Temple was the body of the Lurker rather than "simple" water... I guess we'll never know.
Tempestry is a "gift" bestowed by Hydros, so when she's freed she takes it back from the current Tempest i.e. Devon. When you speak to him after freeing Hydros you learn that he can't control the weather anymore.

Titanic Magic and the fragments:
It's unclear why the titans are linked to the fragments. Two of the paganistic traditions are bound to a pact with their Titanic patron. When the Avatar steal the Heart of Earth and the Breath of Air, he break these oaths and you can bet the respective titans to be angry and withdraw their powers, still by some strange effect each piece hold enough of a connection to the Titan to let the avatar draw the energy to cast the spells. But even that is not quite clear as you are still not able to cast Tempestry even with the Tear od the Sea.
The power of Tempestry is not freely given by Hydros and as soon as she's fred she retake it.
As for Sorcery the book "The Tongue of Flame" is quite clear:
Quote:
THE TONGUE OF FLAME

This object, named by Corodin, the first Master Sorcerer, has been handed down from Master to Master since the Binding of Pyros. It is the key to the power of the Sorcerers.
(snip)
The Tongue was used in the Binding to house a portion of Pyros' being. This allows all Sorcerers to call upon His powers in the ways that we have defined as spells.
(snip)
A final warning, should the Tongue of Flame ever enter the Great Pentacle, the fate of all Pagans will be sealed. The Lord of Flame shall be rejoined with the power in the Tongue and as a result, He will be forever unbound.

Thus the power of Sorcery was not freely given, but -taken- from Pyros, thus by reuniting him with the power of the Tongue, the power should be taken back from the Sorcerers, except for those who still had stored spell in foci...

Purpose of the Ether piece:
If the purpose of the Ether piece is to allow the creation of an Ether Titan that shall rule all four, then why wasn't is sought and destructed ? Was it some sort of failsafe put forth by the Guardian so he could smack the Titans shall they start to rebel ?

Guardian lordship of Britannia:
You said:
Quote:
Maybe you should play U9 again, because you really don't seem to remember the story much. The columns were pulling the moons towards Britannia. It was going to be destroyed. Completely.

I'm not sure that U:A (not worth a 9 label though) was a good example of the Guardian motivations. After all we should also remember that Lord British used his magic to change the moon positions and open the (violet!) moongate to the Shrine of Spiriuality.
And the whole moon shattering britannia were in fact a leftover of the Boo White plot in which the Guardian needed the life energy stored inside the collumns to power a ritual that made him transcend his current state. This would also rip apart the world. So the Avatar and LB dissipated the life energy by casting Armageddon and thus thwarting the Guardian's plan.
Still it's unclear why he didn't do it on another world. Has Britannia something special beyond the presence of the Avatar and LB ? Again we'll never know.

Of the Pagan Temple:
The Temple was known to be on top of Morgaelin mount. After the Guardian shattered the obelisk, nothing was said to be left and the top of the mountain itself was blasted and that in it's place a volcano remained...
What Kalen found was small bits of Blackrock mingled with earth, andI highly doubt all came from the Obelisk unless it was of gigantic size as you still find Blackrock powder mixed with earth in Blackmoor...
The Temple itself vanished and I always assumed (maybe wrongly) that the place where you recreated the Obelisk was the main room of the temple snatched away by the Titans, floating in the Void as the shrine of Spirituality...


Of the Pagan Temple:
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Thepal
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 10, 2022 4:34 am    Post subject:

Van Hailm wrote:
About the point where I says that the Titans first manifested when the Destroyer came, the quote is from Mythran's "Objective History of Pagan"


You might want to extend that bold back slightly... :p

The Objective History of Pagan wrote:
The followers of the new order became known as Pagans. As they were directed, they began to concentrate their worship, through the black obelisk, choosing the very elements of earth, water, air, and fire as the objects of this worship. Soon the elements began to form into actual beings of tremendous power. When the Destroyer finally appeared, the four beings, the four Titans as we call them today, rose up to fight it.


It says the elements began to form into the Titans before the Destroyer came. It doesn't say they never appeared before the Destroyer came.

Van Hailm wrote:
"The Destruction of the Temple"


Once again... Let's extend it back a little....

The Destruction of the Temple wrote:
Years of sweat ultimately resulted the Temple's completion. There the Pagan leaders met to focus their energies into the worship of the Elementals. Tremendous magical forces were used to collect a strange black mineral and shape it into a large, dark obelisk. From inside the Temple, the followers channeled their thoughts through the obelisk to the four elements, giving them even greater power. Soon they had amassed enough energy to become the great Titans of Earth, Water, Air, and Fire.

The war continued, but now the Pagans had considerable assistance. Lithos moved the lands to trap the Zealans, while Hydros removed her waters from their reach. Pyros' fires raged and grew, fueled by the winds of Stratos. It was only a matter of attrition before the Zealans and their petty beliefs fell.Then came the Guardian's final words of warning: `Take your people and depart from the Temple. The Destroyer has come.'As the Pagans left the Temple, the red head of the Destroyer filled the darkened sky, its yellow orb-like eyes staring malevolently at the mountain top.

Then, out from those very eyes lightning shot out, striking the Temple. A few moments later and the great edifice was no more.The cry of shock was heard throughout the land. The Pagans pleaded for the aid of the Titans. They were not disappointed. The four Titans appeared to challenge the invader.


Once again, the Titans were there long before the Destroyer came.

Van Hailm wrote:
and "The Final Sunlight"


As for the Final Sunlight, it is only about the actual Destroyer battle. It doesn't say "Then the Titans appeared for the first time". It just says they appeared, as they had done many times before (they had been warring against the Zealans for a long time already)

Van Hailm wrote:
These three texts hint that the Titans appeared around the same time that the Guardian entered the world.


As I've now shown, no they don't. And I'd also like to point out that every mention of it (including the manual) says it in a way that implies the Titans slowly grew in power the more they were worshipped.

Objective History: "Soon the elements began to form into actual beings of tremendous power"
Destruction of the Temple: "From inside the Temple, the followers channeled their thoughts through the obelisk to the four elements, giving them even greater power. Soon they had amassed enough energy to become the great Titans of Earth, Water, Air, and Fire"
Manual: "As the Guardian had promised, the spirits grew in power, assuming titanic forms..."
also... "The archaic deities of the emotions became enraged as their powers diminished" shows the Zealan gods lost power as they lost worshippers.

Van Hailm wrote:
Still I'm wondering at what were the Titans motivations if they weren't allied with the Guardian.


From the manual:

"The Titans became enamored of their vast powers, demanding even greater sacrifices in return for their past deed. They set upon each other as they vied for supremacy of the world."

Or if you mean their motivation in actually fighting the Destroyer, that was because that is why the Pagans worshipped them, probably. If they didn't fight the Destroyer then: (a) The Pagans would no longer worship them, and (b) The Pagans would all be dead so their Titanic power would fade and they'd cease to exist. Plus, I doubt they liked the idea of another powerful being taking over the world they wanted dominion over.

Van Hailm wrote:
Obviously the Guardian has the ability to talk in some people mind a feat no Titans could do, so they would need him to establish a powerbase in Pagan... Once it is done and worship began, why would they need the Obelisk ? I'm not sure it's role as a prayer focus was so much needed as it's no longer needed afterwards. Maybe the Pagan high priest (which weren't Titans followers by then !) had to enact special ritual to channel the worship energies to the four elemental powers... We'll never know.


The Titans were created through worship, so they didn't need a deal with the Guardian to rule over Pagan because they didn't exist before they were created on Pagan. As for the Obelisk, it was needed to channel the worship more efficiently, I assume, not to mention allow the Guardian into Pagan.

Van Hailm wrote:
Maybe the Titans were already exisiting in the world as a balance to the Emotion Gods. By allying themselves with the Guardian and overthrowing the Ancient Ones they brought Imbalance upon the world...


The Emotion Gods already balanced each other out. They represented Love, Hate and Apathy (basically like Order, Chaos and Balance). The Titans aren't connected to them. One group is based on emotion, the other on the elements.

Van Hailm wrote:
On Tempestry and Hydros:
Kalen was a necromancer who had the power to shape blackrock, and it was this shaped blackrock that shielded him from the watery Titan's wrath. The accounts are unclear as it's recorded that Lithos told him of Hydros weakness to Blackrock but others state that it's the water removal that would have "killed" her... Maybe the water in the Temple was the body of the Lurker rather than "simple" water... I guess we'll never know.
Tempestry is a "gift" bestowed by Hydros, so when she's freed she takes it back from the current Tempest i.e. Devon. When you speak to him after freeing Hydros you learn that he can't control the weather anymore.


Ah, that's who says about the Tempestry powers not working. I couldn't remember (despite it having to be either Devon or Hydros Razz ).

Anyway, Lithos says Hydros's weakness is blackrock, which it is because she can be trapped by it. Kalen didn't shield himself with blackrock, he used it to block the water from entering the temple where Hydros was. Because she was trapped by Blackrock she was unable to attack him.

Van Hailm wrote:
Titanic Magic and the fragments:
It's unclear why the titans are linked to the fragments. Two of the paganistic traditions are bound to a pact with their Titanic patron. When the Avatar steal the Heart of Earth and the Breath of Air, he break these oaths and you can bet the respective titans to be angry and withdraw their powers, still by some strange effect each piece hold enough of a connection to the Titan to let the avatar draw the energy to cast the spells. But even that is not quite clear as you are still not able to cast Tempestry even with the Tear od the Sea.


Stratos doesn't become angry and withdraw her powers. She still wants the Theurgists to be able to heal. As for stealing the Heart of Earth, I believe the necromancer powers still work. Can't you get the Heart before Lothian is interred? Hmm... or do you do all the magic then?

As for Tempestry, that may rely on other things (such as being a descendant of Kalen). The other magics still require foci, reagents and stuff.

Van Hailm wrote:
The power of Tempestry is not freely given by Hydros and as soon as she's fred she retake it.


Well, it is given freely. She just would be destroyed if she didn't.

Van Hailm wrote:
Purpose of the Ether piece:
If the purpose of the Ether piece is to allow the creation of an Ether Titan that shall rule all four, then why wasn't is sought and destructed ? Was it some sort of failsafe put forth by the Guardian so he could smack the Titans shall they start to rebel ?


Maybe the Titans didn't know there was a fourth piece. As far as they knew (as far as anyone knew) there was only meant to be the four Titans. The Zealan Gods are the only ones that knew of the tip, except for some rumours about a fifth fragment of the obelisk.

Van Hailm wrote:
I'm not sure that U:A (not worth a 9 label though) was a good example of the Guardian motivations. After all we should also remember that Lord British used his magic to change the moon positions and open the (violet!) moongate to the Shrine of Spiriuality.


I gave examples from every game the Guardian has been in. The U9 one was just to complete the argument.

Van Hailm wrote:
And the whole moon shattering britannia were in fact a leftover of the Boo White plot in which the Guardian needed the life energy stored inside the collumns to power a ritual that made him transcend his current state. This would also rip apart the world. So the Avatar and LB dissipated the life energy by casting Armageddon and thus thwarting the Guardian's plan.


I don't remember seeing any mention of the Guardian trying to "transcend his current state". Just becoming more powerful by creating more destruction.

Van Hailm wrote:
Still it's unclear why he didn't do it on another world. Has Britannia something special beyond the presence of the Avatar and LB ? Again we'll never know.


He wasn't "transcending". He was just gaining power from the destruction of another world. With Britannia he just decided to tear it apart (after trying a variety of other methods).

Van Hailm wrote:
Of the Pagan Temple:
The Temple was known to be on top of Morgaelin mount. After the Guardian shattered the obelisk, nothing was said to be left and the top of the mountain itself was blasted and that in it's place a volcano remained...
What Kalen found was small bits of Blackrock mingled with earth, andI highly doubt all came from the Obelisk unless it was of gigantic size as you still find Blackrock powder mixed with earth in Blackmoor...
The Temple itself vanished and I always assumed (maybe wrongly) that the place where you recreated the Obelisk was the main room of the temple snatched away by the Titans, floating in the Void as the shrine of Spirituality...


I doubt the place where you recreate the obelisk is part of the old temple. Firstly, I see no reason why the Titans would have saved a bit of floor. And secondly, it doesn't look like something the Pagans would have designed.

As for the remains of the obelisk: "He returned to the volcano and found in the crater the remains of the obelisk. There, in the murky waters continually filled by Hydros' rains, was the darkened silt of this Blackrock." There is nothing saying that all the blackrock in the world was used to create the obelisk, so having lots of blackmoor around the place doesn't mean the obelisk had to be huge.
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Van Hailm
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 10, 2022 11:37 am    Post subject:

I think we have reach a point of non-agreement *lol* Laughing

Quote:
Once again, the Titans were there long before the Destroyer came.

Once again, it's unclear if they manifested -physicaly- (which is my question) or just helped the Pagans by using their powers over the Elements.

Note that it is only -after- the fight with the Destroyer that the Pagans built the sanctuaries to the Titans in an attempt to ease their wrath as they "[The Titans] became enamored of their vast powers, demanding
even greater sacrifices in return for their past deed."

So it raise the question as to where the Titans resided before the Holy Shrines were erected ?

Also note that only Stratos and Hydros resided (apparently) in Pagan. Lithos appeared when called through a ritual or when someone came in the Pit, and Pyros was summoned when the Master Sorcerer needed him.

Quote:
Or if you mean their motivation in actually fighting the Destroyer, that was because that is why the Pagans worshipped them, probably. If they didn't fight the Destroyer then: (a) The Pagans would no longer worship them, and (b) The Pagans would all be dead so their Titanic power would fade and they'd cease to exist. Plus, I doubt they liked the idea of another powerful being taking over the world they wanted dominion over.


The Destroyer was the Guardian so if he hadn't come they [The Titans] would never have been worshipped so I think they could call him their benefactor.

Remember that it's not the Titans (which by all accounts did not exist until the Guardian warned the pre-Pagans about the Destroyer and directed them to the worship of the elements) who communicated with the mortals. It was all the Guardian's plan.

Also what is said is that while more and more Zealans turned to Paganic worship the Ancient Ones lost power. So it can be asked if all the Black Obelisk worship was not a simple mean to divert them from their former gods.

Now if the Titans were into the world before the fight (real or staged) with the Destroyer, why did they not ask for a Sanctuary ? Because maybe they knew most of the world would be destroyed in the fight with the Destroyer/Guardian.

Quote:
As for the Obelisk, it was needed to channel the worship more efficiently

With must take all this "worship" thing with care. Remember that all the source are either pro-Pagans or neutral and more specifically from the POV of a mortal written many years, even centuries -after- the actual events...

While it's clear that the Emotions gods got their powers from their followers, there is no such account talking of the power of the titans waxing and waning with their followers. If there was such a thing then it would ahve been a simple thing to placate them, i.e. to stop Pyros just stop worshipping him and give your prayer to Lithos and Stratos then...

No, I 'm quite sure that something else, something no one knew except the Guardian and Titans was linked to the Obelisk. Maybe it was more of a leech, draining the spiritual power of the Ancient Ones and channeling it to the elemental planes. Or maybe it channeled the emotions and hopes of the Pagans and it coalesced into the Titans. I still think it was more than mere worship as blackrock has never showed such powers...

We have no account of the sacrifices that were asked by the Titans when the Temple still existed or what the Pagans asked for before the Final Battle. All we know is that the Titans helped fight the Zealans and that they were asked to fight the Destroyer (they didn't act by themselves though).

Quote:
Anyway, Lithos says Hydros's weakness is blackrock, which it is because she can be trapped by it. Kalen didn't shield himself with blackrock, he used it to block the water from entering the temple where Hydros was. Because she was trapped by Blackrock she was unable to attack him

He indeed knew what weakness she had since he had the same Wink
Blackrock was impervious to the water of the Titans and Kalen did remove all fresh water access to the Temple. I'm quite sure this already restrained Her movement.

Now if we think about the properties of Blackrock, I'm quite sure it must also have blocked some of her power and only left her with a sliver of what she previously had, thus maybe limiting her form of sorcery to one adept, the Tempest. I seems that it also stopped her from teleporting back to her home elemental plane.

Quote:
Stratos doesn't become angry and withdraw her powers. She still wants the Theurgists to be able to heal.

Excuse me but I doubt that Stratos was such a "good" Titans. After all she conjured Tornados and She also blocked the sun. I'm quite sure she could have easily dispelled the cloud had she wanted to.
Plus tell me why She didn't give her healing powers to the Pagans during the battles with the Zealans ? Or why she did let the poor lad die at Windy Point.
Nay I think that she was jealous when the two others were getting followers too and that she had a to find a way too. She was misguided rather than evil though and if she truly understood what you were going to do she should have found that Her Sacrifice was needed to save the Pagans rather than fight you in the Path of Air...

Quote:
Well, it is given freely. She just would be destroyed if she didn't.

Oh so giving something under menace of death is giving it freely ? Strange concept Twisted Evil

Quote:
The Zealan Gods are the only ones that knew of the tip, except for some rumours about a fifth fragment of the obelisk.

Aye and that's the strange thing. Why did they secure it away. Was it a last trick (guiding it to the tomb of Kumash-Gor ?) or was it put here by the last Zealan priest. I guess we'll never know.
A shame we have infos about the Lost Vale story arc as I think it may have explained a lot more about Zealan's culture and survivance to this day.

BTW how did you envision them ? I always saw them as a greek-like society rather than barbarian brutes as they were described in the Pagan books...
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 10, 2022 5:24 pm    Post subject:

Just one question, rhetorical, but a question nonetheless:
If the Guardian had nothing to do with the placement and/or the empowering of the Titans, then why the epic farce?
The Guardian is not the type of entity to do anything altruistically.

If the Titans existed prior to the Guardian whispering to the Zealan turncoats, then how could they possibly benefit from going along with the Guardian? What possible motivation could the Guardian have in empowering native supernatural entities? It does not make sense. Before considering the ingame text, we must consider the psychological profile of the Guardian. His tendencies in dealing with Britannia dictate otherwise, guys.

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Van Hailm
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 10, 2022 7:48 pm    Post subject:

I think that sadly the whole Guardian plot with Pagan got messed up when 2/3 of the game went to the trashcan.

Many references prior to Ultima 8 release pointed at the Guardian being the Pagan Lord (Serpent Isle Druid, UU2 mors Gotha speech, etc).

I've always thought that the Guardian was a very clever mastermind, not a simpleton destroyer of world as showed in U:A.

His world takeover plots in U7, SI show that he is able to subvert the current government with ease (prior to the Black Gate affair) or if it fail has some backup plan (Otherworld invasion while crippling the decisional body of the realm in UU2, weakenning the realm by leading the heroes afar and shattering the lands [imabalnce storms in UU2])

In Pagan I'm quite sure that there must be a blackrock generator that used to drain the world energy to himself. Maybe this was done in the back of the Titans so they would no even know.

If this is shown in the current state of the game it could only be the Obelisk tip. Is this far fetched ? I don't think so as it is known to be a Talisman of great, power able to transcend the essence of a mortal. Plus it was hidden from the Titans.

Why would he let the Avatar do this ? To trap him on his return and drain the energies of the Titan of Ether on his return to Britannia Razz

Didn't I told you he was a an Evil Mastermind ? Twisted Evil
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 10, 2022 9:40 pm    Post subject:

I think everything centers around the black obelisk. Its seems that the main purpose for the Guardian to contact Pagan it to have the obelisk formed. He knew that the old gods of Pagan wouldn't let this happen so he contrived to have the Pagans switch their worship to the elements, forming the Titans. Whether the Titans existed in some form before that doesn't matter. After the Obelisk is formed and he used it for whatever purpose he had for it, and didn't need it anymore he let it be destroyed. As for the farce, there is no reason that he wouldn't go through with it as a reward to the Titans for helping him form the obelisk. We know that the Guardian plans long term and he may have felt that he'd need them in the future so he appeased them and then lets them have Pagan for themselves. It is also possible that after the Titans assumed corporeal form that part of their power became self sustaining and what they received through the black rock was just extra juice. Knowing the deviousness of the Guardian he may have also dumped the Avatar on to Pagan because he needed the Obelisk reformed for some reason. So he drops in the Avatar and if he dies the Guardian wins, and if he succeeds in reforming the Obelisk the Guardian wins.
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Break Man
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 15, 2022 6:31 am    Post subject:

Quote:
Once again, the speech does not necessarily mean any of that will happen after the Guardian arrives on Britannia. The last sentence definately supports me. "I shall be your companion, your provider..." means on the Avatar's quest (ie, before the Guardian arrives). As for "the master" and "you too shall kneel", the Guardian would not necessarily destroy the Avatar along with Britannia. In fact, he has shown on many occasions that he'd prefer the Avatar to watch everyone around him suffer. The rest of the stuff is already happening on Britannia.


The "companion, provider, and master" speech is something he gave to the Avatar and the fellowship. Why would he say it to more than just the Avatar if he didn't plan to conquer the planet? Isn't he creative enough to give the Avatar a different speech than he gave all the enlightened Fellowship members? Especially if the Avatar's fate lays on a different path for him?

His speech doesn't support you at all. In fact, I fail to see where you think it does... Even if I take the rest of the game out of context.

Quote:
Maybe you should play U9 again, because you really don't seem to remember the story much. The columns were pulling the moons towards Britannia. It was going to be destroyed. Completely.


Er... Play it again. The moons were designed to collide with each other. The only part that mentioned Britannia being destroyed was one conversation option with Lord British that was forgotten to be removed from the game. The rest of the game indicated the moons colliding with each other.

Particular examples: A book in Moonglow. The Avatar's last words to the Guardian "The moons didn't collide..." said in the context that they were meant to hit each other. And let's not forget the cutscene where Lord British stopped the moons. I watched it moments ago to make sure, but it's clear they are moving towards each other, not Britannia.

Doesn't matter though. Ultima 9's complete lack of coherency to both Ultima and even itself makes it utterly irrelevant.

Quote:
Maybe the Titans were already exisiting in the world as a balance to the Emotion Gods. By allying themselves with the Guardian and overthrowing the Ancient Ones they brought Imbalance upon the world...


I don't think balance plays too much of a factor here. We've seen before that an imbalance occurs when one power in a group becomes stronger or weaker than the rest. (Serpent Isle) But this needs to happen within that group of power. This means there would only be an imbalance if one Titan were stronger or weaker than the rest. There is no certainty if balance applies to the Titans, however...

If the Titans were truly products of the elements and came into being from worship, then they wouldn't be much different from the Zealans or the Ophidian Serpents. Meaning, the principles of imbalance would apply. Since the levels of worship clearly vary to a great degree for each Titan, it would appear that the chaos of imbalance has no affect on them.

This would mean that the Titans have no real origins with the elements, though there is a strong connection, obviously. Applying the principles of Balance to Pagan would support that the Titans were brought to Pagan, not conjured up via worship.

Despite it proving in favor of my idea, I don't think balance applies to Pagan at all. Notice how the teleport storms did not affect Pagan in the least, despite the Great Earth Serpent's clear remark that they affected the entire universe? (Though this could be easily argued as a time displacement, as it seems popular enough in the fanfictions. There is nothing that says such is true.)

Quote:
Two of the paganistic traditions are bound to a pact with their Titanic patron. When the Avatar steal the Heart of Earth and the Breath of Air, he break these oaths and you can bet the respective titans to be angry and withdraw their powers, still by some strange effect each piece hold enough of a connection to the Titan to let the avatar draw the energy to cast the spells. But even that is not quite clear as you are still not able to cast Tempestry even with the Tear od the Sea.


The Avatar certainly cannot cast Theurgy spells after taking the Breath of Air. But I do recall that sometimes you can use the foci... That's mainly a bug though. I'm not sure how to exploit it, since it seems pretty random. (I recall occasions after I took the Breath that I was able to use Theurgist spells for a while. Then they stopped working much later. I'm guessing the flag that triggers it is rather shaky.)

I know for a fact that the Avatar can cast Necromancer spells throughout the game. No matter what. I'm not too sure about Sorcerer spells, since I rarely used those anyway.

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If the purpose of the Ether piece is to allow the creation of an Ether Titan that shall rule all four, then why wasn't is sought and destructed ? Was it some sort of failsafe put forth by the Guardian so he could smack the Titans shall they start to rebel ?


This is also something that supports my theory on worship. Why didn't an Ethereal Titan appear when the Obelisk was worshipped?

This means the pieces needed to be enchanted after the gate was destroyed. Since an Ethereal Titan was clearly not on the Guardian's agenda, otherwise he would've either brought one or made the people conjure one, I can only guess that the Obelisk tip was either made as a fail-safe by the Guardian with the other pieces (as already stated) or perhaps the Obelisk Tip is not enchanted into an Ethereal piece until the Avatar takes the powers of all the other Titans. I support the latter idea more than the rest, since it has more coherency.

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I'm not sure that U:A (not worth a 9 label though) was a good example of the Guardian motivations.


It wasn't. The Guardian's plans and actions throughout that game had little to no coherency. It's not even a good example on the Guardian's motivations if you disregard the rest of the series. Razz
'
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Of the Pagan Temple:


Your post seems to have been cut off here. Did you miss something?

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Can't you get the Heart before Lothian is interred? Hmm... or do you do all the magic then?


You can get the Heart before ever speaking to Lithos. Which means it's very clear that Lithos himself may have no bearing as to where or what it is, beyond how incredibly important it is, unlike the other Titans.

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There is nothing saying that all the blackrock in the world was used to create the obelisk, so having lots of blackmoor around the place doesn't mean the obelisk had to be huge.


It would if there was no other trace of Blackrock in the world before-hand. Although such a concept is debatable and moot, since one of the magic weapons is made of blackrock and belonged, apparently, to a Zealan warrior (which had to be around before or around the time the Obelisk was.) Which means that Blackrock exists on Pagan, just substantially more rare than on Britannia or the Serpent Isle.

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So it raise the question as to where the Titans resided before the Holy Shrines were erected ?


They seem to have a place on the Ethereal void that appears cozy enough for them...

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Lithos appeared when called through a ritual or when someone came in the Pit, and Pyros was summoned when the Master Sorcerer needed him.


Pyros resides in Pagan. He's just sealed within the great Pentagram. I was always under the impression that Lithos was also always there. That he was just a part of the wall you find him at, and he shaped a face for himself. (This would fit in, since the only other Titan with a coherent form would be Pyros.)

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Now if the Titans were into the world before the fight (real or staged) with the Destroyer, why did they not ask for a Sanctuary ? Because maybe they knew most of the world would be destroyed in the fight with the Destroyer/Guardian.


I don't see the logic behind this.

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Plus tell me why She didn't give her healing powers to the Pagans during the battles with the Zealans ? Or why she did let the poor lad die at Windy Point.
Nay I think that she was jealous when the two others were getting followers too and that she had a to find a way too. She was misguided rather than evil though and if she truly understood what you were going to do she should have found that Her Sacrifice was needed to save the Pagans rather than fight you in the Path of Air...


Personally, I'm under the belief that Stratos was no different than any other Titan. She was nicer, yes, but her presence was more of a forced crutch than anything else. I explained my reasoning on the Wayward before, to pretty much the same audience. (Thepal and most the original Redemption members.)

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If the Guardian had nothing to do with the placement and/or the empowering of the Titans, then why the epic farce?


The only reason I could think of would be to make the Titans and people believe that the Titans themselves were all-powerful beings to be worshipped. But I don't see where this goes at all, unless the Guardian was simply granting four 'once-dormant' beings a random gift. Which doesn't sound like the guardian at all.

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If the Titans existed prior to the Guardian whispering to the Zealan turncoats, then how could they possibly benefit from going along with the Guardian? What possible motivation could the Guardian have in empowering native supernatural entities?


The goal was to bring down the current Gods and bring up others that would support the Guardian.

If they resided on Pagan already, it would make little difference. All the Guardian would have to do is be aware that such entities existed in a dormant state and then instruct the people of the world on how to tap their power.

Once the Titans were up and running, one of two things could've happened. One: The Guardian pretended to be the Destroyer and let the newborn Titans have at him. Or Two: Forced servitude from the Titans, thusly ensuring a foothold on Pagan, and feigned a battle just to convince the people.

Either way, subterfuge of some form was needed. In both cases, the people are unaware and unable to find the real truth.

This is only if they came via worship though. Something I still doubt greatly.
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Sowser
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 23, 2022 7:18 pm    Post subject:

Just a side note I was thinking of earlier:

The two times we know about that the Guardian appeared on Pagan he was HUGE! Since he was of such titanic proportions is in possible that he was appropriating power for himself from the obelisk tip meant for the Titan of Ether?
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Withstand the Fury
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 24, 2022 3:02 am    Post subject:

The Guardian's physical size in the Ultima series is as inconsistent as his dental work!

In Ultima VII: TBG, he's bigger than the Avatar by...well, maybe a factor of three, judging from the relative size of the Black Gate in-game and in the end video.

In Serpent Isle and Pagan, he's HUGE!!! His hand could hold the Avatar several times over!

And yet in Ascension, he's only a little bit taller than the Avatar.

I don't know how big he was in Underworld II. Point is, I think we can probably attribute noticeable changes in his size to simple plot inconsistency.

WtFD
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Sowser
Titans of Ether Fan
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Joined: 03 Oct 2021
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 24, 2022 5:59 am    Post subject:

We can attribute A LOT to plot inconsistency but where's the fun in that? I'd rather try and come up with a cohesive explanation out of the given mythos than just dismiss it as a poorly thought out idea by an EA lamebrain. I expect that's what the Titan team is trying to do with Redemption.
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Thepal
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 24, 2022 11:38 am    Post subject:

I don't really see the Guardian's changing size a plot inconsistancy. His teeth, yes. But there is nothing saying he can't change size.

Then again, if he could change size, he should have just shrunk himself so he could run through the black gate in U7 instead of trying to squeeze through really slowly :p
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