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Video of New Magincia or Work?
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Video or Work?
Video of New Magincia
63%
 63%  [ 12 ]
Work!!
36%
 36%  [ 7 ]
Total Votes : 19

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Corv
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 02, 2022 11:56 am    Post subject: Video of New Magincia or Work?

Here a little poll for you to keep this whole thing interactive Wink Do you want me to make a video in which you can see how it is to wander around on New Magincia or should I not waste my time with this and keep on working (would be around 1 hour worktime Wink )?

btw: this would have been the planned suprise I talked about in the dev diary (01.01).
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Iolo
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 03, 2022 9:53 am    Post subject:

@ Titans of ether:
I follow this project for ages already and am SO excited about it all! Please promise you wont stop working on it before its finished! I seriously doubt that I could handle a cancelation of Redemption.

Keep up the amazing work!


@all the other fans:

Wow people, 78 views (now) and only 6 votes. If you show soooo much interest much longer then I won't wonder if he does neither one of those two choices

I remember the time on the olde board where everyone was complaining about the lack of info and material by the team, and now that its all here no one apprechiates it.
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Dino
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 03, 2022 11:45 am    Post subject:

I'll be blunt: don't waste your time with treats that take more than a minute to make (i.e. screenshots yes, videos no). Better get a demo earlier than see a video and take longer to actually play the game. Smile
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Corv
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 03, 2022 11:49 am    Post subject:

There will be no demo of Redemption. We dont want to spoil the fun with an unfinished version (or parts) of the game. The maximum you can get before a beta release are videos. Its better this way, trust me Wink
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Corv Dragon
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Withstand the Fury
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 03, 2022 9:11 pm    Post subject:

I, for one, would have to disagree, Corv.

Demos might give away a little bit, sure...but they serve a far more valuable PR purpose, namely that they give fans a 'hands-on' taste of what is to come. If you're clever (and you and your team are exceedingly so, if word that has reached my ears is accurate) then you can create a demo that doesn't give away more than a few dialogues and a couple side-quests (much like Lazarus demo 2).

More importantly, demos serve as a sort of proof to the world that you can deliver a playable product. Videos are somewhat contrived because they represent the game as it ought to function, not how it actually functions. Videos are nice, don't get me wrong - the world you appear to be creating is beautiful, no doubt - but unless the fans are given the chance to wander it for themselves, instead of taking the guided tour, they're going to find any morsel or tidbit thrown their way to be...less than sufficient.

Dino is right. Skip the appetizers, focus on a good main-course. If you want, post a demo like Lazarus (demo 1): no quests, just some NPCs and some monsters and one island to wander around.

Very Happy WtFD
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Corv
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 03, 2022 10:26 pm    Post subject:

Well I have to disagree. Demos can never transport the true feel of a game, they can never be as immersive. Sure they give an idea of how the game will be but at the same time they do not at all. Demos are like eating only the salt instead of the whole meal. Alltogether can be amazing and still the one part can gve a bad impression compared to what it really is. I always had bad impressions (or worse) about games after I played a demo. And everytime the full game gave a totally different feeling. I never play demos of games (anymore). Yes we can make a demo thats worth playing but I wont spoil the game with something like that. Did one of you ever play an (orig) Ultima demo? Ultima is more than a game (to me at least). And so cutting out a piece to throw it to the lions is not what I want to do with it. Beta test yes, demo, no way.

Maybe this is not right for everyone, but I wont risk to give one of you a wrong impression about the whole meal.

Oh, and by the way: preparing a demo takes MUCH more time than making some videos if you want to do it right and dont really only cut a piece out. Thats also why demos from high quality games often come out AFTER the release of the full game. To make a demo that can keep up to the whole game all the features have to be in there which are in the full game, all has to be worked out perfectly to give the right impression. Or you can just throw it out and dont care, like Joint Operations to not waste time. Thats not the way I will go, sorry to dissapoint you.
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Withstand the Fury
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 04, 2022 12:10 am    Post subject:

Corv wrote:
Well I have to disagree. Demos can never transport the true feel of a game, they can never be as immersive.


True, but that is not the intent of a demo. A demo is just that, a demonstration. It's not the final product, and might not even be a large part of the final product. In the case of Lazarus (demo 1), the demo wasn't even the finalized version of Verity Isle (as it lacked quests and items).

Corv wrote:
Sure they give an idea of how the game will be but at the same time they do not at all. Demos are like eating only the salt instead of the whole meal. Alltogether can be amazing and still the one part can gve a bad impression compared to what it really is.


That is the risk you take in releasing a demo, that there will be more lemons than cherries. But you know, that in itself is the more honest path to follow - if a problem crops up, something you weren't expecting or something people disagree with, then it gives you a chance to correct it instead of having the final product subject to the same criticism.

Corv wrote:
I always had bad impressions (or worse) about games after I played a demo. And everytime the full game gave a totally different feeling. I never play demos of games (anymore). Yes we can make a demo thats worth playing but I wont spoil the game with something like that. Did one of you ever play an (orig) Ultima demo? Ultima is more than a game (to me at least). And so cutting out a piece to throw it to the lions is not what I want to do with it. Beta test yes, demo, no way.


So do what the Lazarus folks did - release a demo of a terrain segment (like they did with Verity Isle) and populate it with a few NPCs and some monsters. No quests, no special items. Give people a chance to wander the terrain and talk to a few people.

Corv wrote:
Maybe this is not right for everyone, but I wont risk to give one of you a wrong impression about the whole meal.


You're the project lead, and it's your call.

Personally, I'd rather pick up a demo and see if the developer can deliver what is promised than watch a video about how everything ought to work. That was one problem with Ascension - all these great trailers and in-game videos got released, but the final product was nothing like was promised in the visuals.

Corv wrote:
Oh, and by the way: preparing a demo takes MUCH more time than making some videos if you want to do it right and dont really only cut a piece out. Thats also why demos from high quality games often come out AFTER the release of the full game. To make a demo that can keep up to the whole game all the features have to be in there which are in the full game, all has to be worked out perfectly to give the right impression. Or you can just throw it out and dont care, like Joint Operations to not waste time. Thats not the way I will go, sorry to dissapoint you.


It's engine-dependent, I find. In NWN, I can just delete a couple of flags and boom - player is confined to one island in the game. Maybe in Morrowind it is harder to restrict the player to one section of terrain.

The demo doesn't have to be all that much work, though. What will the video be of? Walking through New Magincia? Why not just release New Magincia as a playable map, maybe with a few monsters and/or NPCs (or maybe not). Same net effect as a video - everyone gets to see the land and the structures, but in their own way.

And not THAT much more work than a video.

Just my two cents worth,
WtFD
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Corv
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 04, 2022 12:50 am    Post subject:

What you write about how it could be done is true of course - I never said anything opposite, but thats not the way I see as the the right one, and it has nothing to do with honesty, but with not betraying the game and the vision behind it (I hope someone understands what I mean Wink ).

Ultima is not only about running around or about solving quests. Ultima is magic and that magic cannot be perefctly transported in a demo (in a piece ripped out). Yes a demo CAN be done but that doesnt mean that its best.

Maybe one day when some fans are that eager and start a petition (oh and I cant wait for those 10 votes then Wink ...). and its a clear yesss for the demo I *might* think about it again... Smile

What a stubborn Redemption leader you have there, I feel for you all my friends Wink
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Sir Iceblade
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 04, 2022 4:56 am    Post subject:

Hey, but I love salt Laughing

Well, I could do for a video--be interesting and quick to dl. A demo would be nice, too; and also to get a feel of how the world will look. Be there no doubt that you have completed the textures for New Maginicia and have little to change. Wink Wink
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 04, 2022 6:18 am    Post subject:

Corv wrote:
What you write about how it could be done is true of course - I never said anything opposite, but thats not the way I see as the the right one, and it has nothing to do with honesty, but with not betraying the game and the vision behind it (I hope someone understands what I mean Wink ).


I get what you mean, I think, and in a way I agree. In another way, I do not agree.

In the sense that I do agree, you're right - Ultima is about complex and immersive plots, and a demo can contain neither of these. Ultima is a whole experience, not a taste of one, and a demo would be the latter rather than the former.

Corv wrote:
Ultima is not only about running around or about solving quests. Ultima is magic and that magic cannot be perefctly transported in a demo (in a piece ripped out). Yes a demo CAN be done but that doesnt mean that its best.


Where I disagree, however, is in that Ultima is also about the world. It's about an immersive, LARGE world that offers hours of exploration potential. And this aspect is captured by a demo.

Corv wrote:
Maybe one day when some fans are that eager and start a petition (oh and I cant wait for those 10 votes then Wink ...). and its a clear yesss for the demo I *might* think about it again... Smile


Fair enough. I'm sure it will be a great video.

Corv wrote:
What a stubborn Redemption leader you have there, I feel for you all my friends Wink


Hey, you're a leader who does his job and leads, and there's nothing wrong at all with that. You're sticking to your guns, and I will be the first to applaud.

Cheers,
Smile WtFD
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Dino
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 04, 2022 7:18 pm    Post subject:

Lots of food imagery... making me hungry there! Wink

I see good points on either side of the argument here... just one thing doesn't make sense to me:

Corv wrote:
Thats also why demos from high quality games often come out AFTER the release of the full game."


There isn't any use in a demo after the full game is released... might as well get the full game immediately, no? On second thought, though, I think you are referring to commercial games like Dungeon Siege where you have a demo and from it you can decide whether to buy the full game or not. Well, that really isn't the case with a free mod.

Well, my biggest point against videos is what WtFD already pointed out - it's a guided tour, it only shows you what it wants. People want freedom to explore as they want.

But anyway, it's useless to persist in asking for a demo if the final answer is no. I still think it's best to get on with the mod and forget videos. If not a demo, we'll get the final thing earlier, then.
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Corv
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 04, 2022 8:20 pm    Post subject:

I dont plan to release a demo after the whole game, dont worry. This was just an example for the effort that has to put into a demo. And yes I am reffering to games like Half Life 2.

Of course you can't interact in videos, same as in pictures. They are not there to give you the possibility to interact but to get an impression of whats shown. Or does that mean you also dont want screenshots anymore because you cant interact? .. . And of course its better to interact but, for example, when you meet a girl, are you happy that you can see how shes moving or is that so bad that you want nothing at all or sex? Think about it Wink So thats why I think a video is better than nothing. Wink

What you guys forget is: this is not a decision between a video and a demo. There will be no demo just because there is no video. Its a decision between moving pictures you can't interact with or no moving pictures at all. Sometimes I think you think too much about some stuff.

So erase and rewind. Video or no video, yes or no. Thats it, point blank. No hidden sience behind it, no secret meaning, no virtues... Smile

This thread was only meant as a small teaser, kinda joke, building up tension before the video is released. If I would have known that we end up in a discussion about the meaning of salt and sex then I would have made it simpler and even more obvious than I did already in the original post).

So here we go:

"People, a video is comming, hey lets have fun, keep it interactive and vote for it. Its no work anyway.... YAY we can click on yes till its comming... excitement... Very Happy "

Life could be so easy....
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 05, 2022 5:00 am    Post subject:

It's all well and good. A video is coming. As Dino before me, I would just like to comment on one thing you said, Corv.

Corv wrote:
Of course you can't interact in videos, same as in pictures. They are not there to give you the possibility to interact but to get an impression of whats shown. Or does that mean you also dont want screenshots anymore because you cant interact?


But there is a tacit difference between the two. A screenshot is meant to be a static image from in-game, or within the development environment, and is intended only to convey the appearence of the world.

Yes, a screenshot is somewhat contrived in that the developer gets to pick an optimal camera angle and choose the lighting to a certain extent, but that's okay. A JPEG image is meant to be static, does not by its nature give even the slightest hint away, and is acknowledged as a sampler, a morsel, an appetiizer...call it what you want (hungry yet, Dino?).

Screenshots don't have to be interactive, because that is not their intent. Their intent is to provide a brief snapshot, offer some evidence that development is progressing, and occasionally make nice background images. Yes, they are somewhat contrived, because bad screenshots disappear as easily (and in the same manner) as bad pictures that I accidentally take with my digital camera. But that's okay - that's the nature of the screenshot, and nobody is going to demand interactivity in what is acknowledged to be a static image.

However, a video is not the same as a screenshot, nor is it the same as a sequence of screenshots. A video is a guided tour, and is not static. But because it isn't static, and especially because this is a free module (and it's really easy to upload module snapshots) , there is an expectation of interactivity.

Reason? Well, we can see the world pretty damn well in the pictures. Yes, a video would give us a nice tour and a better sense of scale...but so could a nice montage of screenies.

THAT's why the interactivity is nice.

But hey, videos make good watching!
Smile WtFD
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Sowser
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 05, 2022 8:00 am    Post subject:

Yea, a video is coming!!!
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Corv
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 05, 2022 9:52 am    Post subject:

@Sowser: YEAH! Smile

@Wtfd:
First: you did still not replace the pdf with the complete one on our site, could you please do that?

A video gives a better impression of the feeling of a game than a screenshot. Thats it. Next step would be playing the game in any form.

Videos also dont have to be interactive because its also not their intent, trust me I talked to some of them...

Oh and do you really believe that someone accidently buts a bad screenshot online? Its MUCH easier to make a perfect screenshot where left and right and behind the shown picture is nothing but empty space, than a video. A video IS the next step, you see whats around the next corner, you see that theres more than one nice area, but still can move where you want, this final step should be made, well, as it says, in the end. A video is also an appatizer.

Heres the evolution ladder Smile : written advertisment (plans) -> screenshots -> videos -> demo or alpha/beta test -> final game

A montage of screens? Are you serious? This is getting very theoretical. Trust me, its faster if I run through an area an make a video. And you want me to be fast in what I do if I got your former posts right Wink

Oh I have an idea, I give you all single pictures of models like trees, flowers, houses and you can create your own Redemption screenshot, why not! Smile

But seriously: "especially because its a module": Yes if you work on it in a way that a demo or sample is possible and priority, if you work in that direction. I for my part prefer to keep our line, to work on the WHOLE game in steps and not but effort into a part of the game, to finish everything there, waste hours, days, maybe weeks on that to provide a demo. Then when you continue on the steps you maybe realise that everything you did for the demo part was for nothing becasue you have to change it anyway (because of how the whole production turned out to be). Our goal is to give you the WHOLE thing as fast as possible and not a demo as fast as possible. You can see the beta (or alpha) test as a demo when its out. I am sure lots of those who dont like to discuss and just "watch" agree with that.

If in the "quest stage" of the project comes a point where it would be no special effort to release a demo we can think about that again, but in this stage of the project, like I said: no way, I wont waste my time for this, I see the higher goal as priority.

And IF there will be demo I dont want it to be an empty one. I want to deliver high quality. And thats in evreyone interest, I think.

Oh and before we start all over again: Of course (like I said) is interactivity nice, a video doesnt try to be interactive, nor does a screenshot and also no montage of shots. They ALL dont try to be interactive.

I said it all and wont repeat myself a 3rd time. Cant believe it that you tricked me into answering again Wink And before this discussion about "whats better a video or a demo?" continues keep following in mind: no its no discussion about demo or video, so keep your amunition for the day I open a poll "video or demo" Smile

So take it easy guys! Everyone who fears that when he sees a video he might get such a intense feel for the need to interact in this world that he maybe cant handle it and dies: simply dont download it! Wink

I am sure there are tons of people who will be happy about it, else I wouldn't do it.

Finally an info for those of you who actually look forward to the video:
Dont worry, its no trying to be cool fly down and around trees cut together action video with a gothic-rock soundtrack. Its actual ingame footage which shows how it is to take a small walk around half of new magincia, just the way you would see it when youre in there.

EDIT: Video is released! Go to the Homepage to get the info about it.
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